CD32 Music, IFF 8SVX And Whdload

Antiriad · 14 December 2003, 18:22

I wonder if someone in the know could help me out here.

Obviously, Whdload cannot play CD or MP3 tracks derived from CD32 games but has any thought been given to having the MP3's converted to IFF 8SVX files and see if these can be played whenever a CD32 game requests a music track?

Or is this just as impossible to do?

fisken uno · 14 December 2003, 18:38

GREAT thread, Anti. I've thought a lot about how I wish I could play CD32 games with compressed audio tracks kinda like I can play Sega CD games on Gens with Mp3 compressed audio tracks. But my thoughts have been that it could be cool if WinUAE had this option. THIS is a cool idea I haven't thought about - if WHDload could have this option!

So, is this even possible? Would it require a lot of work?

gary · 15 December 2003, 01:12

I'm assuming you're talking about a real Amiga and not emulation? I think it is possible, but the problem would be with the overhead involved with swapping control between the game which may require complete control of the system and the operating system which may need to be reactivated every time a part of the sample needs to be loaded and played. Also the game would need to be patched so that it doesn't use at least 1 of the 4 audio channels.

Unfortunately most WHDload games do not use the operating system (hence the need for WHDload to get them working in the first place) which is the biggest problem I can see unless WHDload itself could be responsible for streaming the IFF file from hard disk eliminating the need for the OS to be swithed on/off?

Antiriad · 15 December 2003, 10:53

Aye, i did mean real Amiga - although this would solve Fiskens problem also.

Does sound tricky from what youre saying tho Gary. I guess it would mean that Whdload would suddenly have to become a 8svx player as well to negate the need for the OS to intervene?

As a side note, Im impressed with 8svx as a format! Quite compact, and not bad quality.

gary · 16 December 2003, 01:34

Quote:

As a side note, Im impressed with 8svx as a format! Quite compact, and not bad quality.

8bit samples at 22khz do sound OK. A lot of PC users think that 8-bit samples always sound 'hissy' because of many soundblaster cards had bad quality 8bit DACs. Many of the samples I've converted from my PC clone to Amiga sound *much* better on the Amiga despite the sample being exactly the same.

Galahad/FLT · 16 December 2003, 17:31

For the CD32 mean that if you play CD music, then the system has to be active in the background (i.e. you can't disable Multitasking).

What you suggest isn't impossible, but it would require such big RAM overheads and processor overheads that its simply not worth doing it for the three people that would benefit from it.

What you also have to remember, is that how are you going to do the sample game effects mixing whilst the CD music is playing/emulated? Playing a CD track doesn't stress the Amiga at all with regards to available sound channels.

fisken uno · 16 December 2003, 21:02

Oh. Seems that this was a bigger deal than I had hoped... I assume it would be a difficult task as well to put mp3 support in WinUAE then, that is to make it play mp3 files instead of audio tracks? I know nothing of these matters or programming, so I dunno what's possible and what's not... Would it be a bigger deal than it was for the Gens or ScummVM teams? It would save an awful lot of space because you would be able to make isos along with mp3 tracks that could be played directly... Oh well. It was a nice dream

Amiga1992 · 16 December 2003, 23:41

Arrr lameulators!

ScummVM and gens have nothing to do with WinUAE. Absolutely nothing. Comparing the three is like comparing pears and apples and onions.

for a quick workaround, create a cd image of teh audio data and mount that as cd0:, i guess it should work. I don't know, I'm talking from the rear end here, since I don't lameulate.

fisken uno · 16 December 2003, 23:53

Yes yes yes, Akira. I know ScummVM, Gens and WinUAE aren't the same. But I don't know how routines around handling CD audio work... I was just asking a question, and I have already admitted that I'm dumb when it comes to this!

Of course I can mount an iso, but if I want audio tracks I gotta have them UNcompressed which takes a lot of space. Still I haven't found a virtual drive that can handle cue sheets for mp3 tracks and the Daemon Tools team have explicitly said they will NEVER implement support for it... I dunno why. It seems like the virtual drive for Alcohol 120% will eventually be able to handle it though, so I guess I'll just have to wait for it (because THAT would solve my problems).

You complain about "lameulators", 'kira, but this problem would be the same if I owned a real amiga and wanted to have a disc with five games instead of only one...

gary · 17 December 2003, 01:32

Quote:

For the CD32 mean that if you play CD music, then the system has to be active in the background (i.e. you can't disable Multitasking).

Thats not exactly true. I can start a CD audio track playing then start a game that takes over the system (IK+) from RAM:
It seems that once the CD hardware is given the 'play' command it doesn't need any input from the Amiga hardware. The problem I found was that with the software I tested I could not get the CD to loop tracks. When it reached the end of the last track it would stop at which point I couldn't do anything because IK+ was calling the shots

Galahad/FLT · 17 December 2003, 02:13

Quote:

Originally posted by gary
Thats not exactly true. I can start a CD audio track playing then start a game that takes over the system (IK+) from RAM:
It seems that once the CD hardware is given the 'play' command it doesn't need any input from the Amiga hardware. The problem I found was that with the software I tested I could not get the CD to loop tracks. When it reached the end of the last track it would stop at which point I couldn't do anything because IK+ was calling the shots

You just proved me right then!

Having been a commercial Amiga games programmer, I *might* just know what I am talking about!

For you to have *TOTAL* control of the CD subsystem, multitasking CANNOT be disabled.

gary · 17 December 2003, 05:25

Quote:

Having been a commercial Amiga games programmer, I *might* just know what I am talking about!

But other members here might not.

Quote:

For you to have *TOTAL* control of the CD subsystem, multitasking CANNOT be disabled.

That is not exactly what you said before hence my comment: not exactly true. Maybe I mis-read your previous post as not being able to play CD tracks with multitasking disabled. I also thought that games such as Pinball Fantasies CD32 actually disabled multitasking and play CD tracks without using the OS.

I was clarifying as other people have posted messages saying that you can't do something when in fact you can (eg: play WHDload games without fast memory / or on a CD32). These sort of responses may stop some people from experimenting or even creating something themselves.

Toni Wilen · 17 December 2003, 08:42

WinUAE and iso+mp3: possible but imho not worth the trouble, I am not interested and I am sure there will be CD emulator with mp3-support someday.

Basically I'd have to implement partial SCSI/ATAPI CD ROM emulation. (play from x to y, query current play position etc..) Play audio-command get two parameters, starting position and ending position in frames or blocks, not tracks. Think about command that crosses two or more tracks... Forwarding commands directly (plus some simple translation) to SCSI/ATAPI drive is much more simpler and easier.

multitasking:

CD32's cd.device may not need multitasking but interrupts must be enabled. There are very few system routines that are documented to work without interrupts.

btw, some CD32 games access CD32's drive controller directly instead of using cd.device.

fisken uno · 17 December 2003, 14:36

Thanks Toni. Then I know.

What the heck, WinUAE is the best emu anyway!

Peanutuk · 17 December 2003, 22:32

@Galahad/FLT

Sorry to butt in but will you PLEASE answer my PM/emails ??????

Antiriad · 18 December 2003, 10:33

Ill be honest and state my primary motivation for this thread was a whd install for Super Streetfighter 2 Turbo, which unlike a lot of CD32 titles was a platform exclusive.

Most other games were A500/A1200 ports which rarely had graphical improvements as well as the usually pre-requisite CD tracks so for me arent as worth it.

Still, from what you and others like Codetapper have said, it would take a lot of work and only a few people would be able to play it.

14 December 2003, 18:22	#1
Antiriad The Sacred Armour Of Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sussex, UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,141	CD32 Music, IFF 8SVX And Whdload I wonder if someone in the know could help me out here. Obviously, Whdload cannot play CD or MP3 tracks derived from CD32 games but has any thought been given to having the MP3's converted to IFF 8SVX files and see if these can be played whenever a CD32 game requests a music track? Or is this just as impossible to do?

16 December 2003, 17:31	#6
Galahad/FLT Going nowhere Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: United Kingdom Age: 50 Posts: 9,016	Programming Guidelines... For the CD32 mean that if you play CD music, then the system has to be active in the background (i.e. you can't disable Multitasking). What you suggest isn't impossible, but it would require such big RAM overheads and processor overheads that its simply not worth doing it for the three people that would benefit from it. What you also have to remember, is that how are you going to do the sample game effects mixing whilst the CD music is playing/emulated? Playing a CD track doesn't stress the Amiga at all with regards to available sound channels.

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14 December 2003, 18:38	#2
fisken uno Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Age: 44 Posts: 716	GREAT thread, Anti. I've thought a lot about how I wish I could play CD32 games with compressed audio tracks kinda like I can play Sega CD games on Gens with Mp3 compressed audio tracks. But my thoughts have been that it could be cool if WinUAE had this option. THIS is a cool idea I haven't thought about - if WHDload could have this option! So, is this even possible? Would it require a lot of work?

15 December 2003, 01:12	#3
gary Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Perth, Western Australia Age: 50 Posts: 283	I'm assuming you're talking about a real Amiga and not emulation? I think it is possible, but the problem would be with the overhead involved with swapping control between the game which may require complete control of the system and the operating system which may need to be reactivated every time a part of the sample needs to be loaded and played. Also the game would need to be patched so that it doesn't use at least 1 of the 4 audio channels. Unfortunately most WHDload games do not use the operating system (hence the need for WHDload to get them working in the first place) which is the biggest problem I can see unless WHDload itself could be responsible for streaming the IFF file from hard disk eliminating the need for the OS to be swithed on/off?

15 December 2003, 10:53	#4
Antiriad The Sacred Armour Of Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sussex, UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,141	Aye, i did mean real Amiga - although this would solve Fiskens problem also. Does sound tricky from what youre saying tho Gary. I guess it would mean that Whdload would suddenly have to become a 8svx player as well to negate the need for the OS to intervene? As a side note, Im impressed with 8svx as a format! Quite compact, and not bad quality.

16 December 2003, 21:02	#7
fisken uno Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Age: 44 Posts: 716	Oh. Seems that this was a bigger deal than I had hoped... I assume it would be a difficult task as well to put mp3 support in WinUAE then, that is to make it play mp3 files instead of audio tracks? I know nothing of these matters or programming, so I dunno what's possible and what's not... Would it be a bigger deal than it was for the Gens or ScummVM teams? It would save an awful lot of space because you would be able to make isos along with mp3 tracks that could be played directly... Oh well. It was a nice dream

16 December 2003, 23:41	#8
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,654	Arrr lameulators! ScummVM and gens have nothing to do with WinUAE. Absolutely nothing. Comparing the three is like comparing pears and apples and onions. for a quick workaround, create a cd image of teh audio data and mount that as cd0:, i guess it should work. I don't know, I'm talking from the rear end here, since I don't lameulate.

16 December 2003, 23:53	#9
fisken uno Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Age: 44 Posts: 716	Yes yes yes, Akira. I know ScummVM, Gens and WinUAE aren't the same. But I don't know how routines around handling CD audio work... I was just asking a question, and I have already admitted that I'm dumb when it comes to this! Of course I can mount an iso, but if I want audio tracks I gotta have them UNcompressed which takes a lot of space. Still I haven't found a virtual drive that can handle cue sheets for mp3 tracks and the Daemon Tools team have explicitly said they will NEVER implement support for it... I dunno why. It seems like the virtual drive for Alcohol 120% will eventually be able to handle it though, so I guess I'll just have to wait for it (because THAT would solve my problems). You complain about "lameulators", 'kira, but this problem would be the same if I owned a real amiga and wanted to have a disc with five games instead of only one...

17 December 2003, 08:42	#13
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,570	WinUAE and iso+mp3: possible but imho not worth the trouble, I am not interested and I am sure there will be CD emulator with mp3-support someday. Basically I'd have to implement partial SCSI/ATAPI CD ROM emulation. (play from x to y, query current play position etc..) Play audio-command get two parameters, starting position and ending position in frames or blocks, not tracks. Think about command that crosses two or more tracks... Forwarding commands directly (plus some simple translation) to SCSI/ATAPI drive is much more simpler and easier. multitasking: CD32's cd.device may not need multitasking but interrupts must be enabled. There are very few system routines that are documented to work without interrupts. btw, some CD32 games access CD32's drive controller directly instead of using cd.device.

17 December 2003, 14:36	#14
fisken uno Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sweden Age: 44 Posts: 716	Thanks Toni. Then I know. What the heck, WinUAE is the best emu anyway!

17 December 2003, 22:32	#15
Peanutuk Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The North, UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,082	@Galahad/FLT Sorry to butt in but will you PLEASE answer my PM/emails ??????

18 December 2003, 10:33	#16
Antiriad The Sacred Armour Of Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sussex, UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,141	Ill be honest and state my primary motivation for this thread was a whd install for Super Streetfighter 2 Turbo, which unlike a lot of CD32 titles was a platform exclusive. Most other games were A500/A1200 ports which rarely had graphical improvements as well as the usually pre-requisite CD tracks so for me arent as worth it. Still, from what you and others like Codetapper have said, it would take a lot of work and only a few people would be able to play it.

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