Lemon/EAB Super League 2020 - Round 5 - Jaguar XJ220 - Page 2

lifeschool · 11 April 2020, 18:38

Malko - I apologise for mikes turn of words. You are quire right to point out that the mods might interpret comments the wrong way, (btw, mike IS the moderator on this forum)

..and write a note to say saving within the game (the save feature) isnt allowed, and neither is leaving the machine on all night and coming back the next day. This is covered in the player agreement section of the rules where we all agree to play all the games without a break, unless its a call of nature or some temporary necessary thing, where you come back straight away to the game and carry on. As some games go on for a long time, endurance is part of the challenge. Admittedly, I didnt expect this game to go on for such a long time. See the discussion about Turbo mode on Lemon.

arcanist, Do you need to withdraw your score? Im very happy to do so, especially at this early stage.

Its still early days as we head into the second week of the round, so there is an opportunity to improve, and score even more points.

arcanist · 11 April 2020, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifeschool

arcanist, Do you need to withdraw your score? Im very happy to do so, especially at this early stage.

Yes, that was done in two separate sessions.

In general I don't sit more than an hour without a break for health reasons. I didn't know that was a rule so probably there are more games I wouldn't be able to participate in. I only saw the no save/save states rule (which makes sense as you can replay with that).

malko · 11 April 2020, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifeschool

[...] neither is leaving the machine on all night and coming back the next day. This is covered in the player agreement section of the rules where we all agree to play all the games without a break, unless its a call of nature or some temporary necessary thing, where you come back straight away to the game and carry on. As some games go on for a long time, endurance is part of the challenge.[...]

Personally, I understand the rules in a different way. And the way I understand them, arcanist must not withdraw his score

Extracted from the rules (link available in the 1st post of this thread) :

Quote:

[...] Unwritten Rules:
Players are encouraged to play the game in one sitting per try. So for example, you are discouraged from pausing the game to take a shower, have a bite to eat, and then unpause the game later. Some games are gruelling, and its this mental concentration which matters, especially if a game is playing for some time. The only exception to this is when exceptional circumstances happen. Like a call of nature, or a call at the door or telephone. When this happens, pausing a high scoring run may be necessary, but often players report crashing out and having to restart anyway. These guidelines are a player agreement to play this way, and you dont have to do this. [...]

Thus, pausing the game and returning later, as arcanist did, is allowed. Therefore his score is valid (and can't be withdrew).

Thinking out loud : it would be a shame to push the participants on the EAB side one by one towards the exit . Don't you think so ?

removed dig, it is not necessary - BippyM

mihcael · 12 April 2020, 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

Personally, I understand the rules in a different way. And the way I understand them, arcanist must not withdraw his score

Extracted from the rules (link available in the 1st post of this thread) :

Thus, pausing the game and returning later, as arcanist did, is allowed. Therefore his score is valid (and can't be withdrew).

The rules are (usually) very rarely required to be referenced, having re-read them I reaffirm my comment but agree that it should be up to arcanist decide if he would like his score to stand. As put into words by the next unwritten rule... "Players are encouraged to play with sportmanship. This can mean deciding what is fair and not fair yourself."

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko

Thinking out loud : it would be a shame to push the participants on the EAB side one by one towards the exit . Don't you think so ?

It would be a shame if the EAB side of the competition was shut down also.

removed comment - BippyM

BippyM · 12 April 2020, 12:44

I am going to weigh in on the differences in this thread shortly..

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanist

Yes, that was done in two separate sessions.

In general I don't sit more than an hour without a break for health reasons. I didn't know that was a rule so probably there are more games I wouldn't be able to participate in. I only saw the no save/save states rule (which makes sense as you can replay with that).

I have to agree totally with you here. Sitting in the same position for a long period of time can be difficult for some people, and I think the rules need to be revised a little bit to be "non-discriminate". I for one cannot sit for long periods without suffering from back ache, and joint pain. I think a middle ground should be found where everyone can enjoy these competitions regardless of abilities and disabilities. Maybe the rule should be allowing the game to pause for a fair period of time, especially as most games actually have a pause key ingame. Maybe the following could be considered

Pause breaks of XXX time is allowed on the condition it is declared
If suffering from a physical disability/medical issue then it is disclosed on first entry to the mods/persons running the competition

BippyM · 12 April 2020, 12:50

I have tidied this thread up, malko let it go. mihcael is only reiterating the rules, see my previous post on what I think on this matter.

Back to the competition please gents

lifeschool · 12 April 2020, 16:14

Thats a good point about being able to sit for long periods. This wasnt an issue 10 years ago when I first joined, but in my 30s I didnt have the same issues as I now have in my 40s. Weak bladder and back ache being just two.

Its important to understand the competition was set up for two clear reasons, first to run a fair and orderly challenge, with stratified scores, depending on personal ability and progress. Second, to have fun. But Fun cant come at the expense of fairness, or what is the point of fairness. Having a level playing field for all means we can trust each other to work within the limits of the rounds, and nobody is left wondering if XYZ is allowed, as unless it states it is allowed, it isnt.

The 'no pausing' agreement came about after players reported taking showers, having a bite to eat, watching TV for a bit, and then going back to the point in the game where they left off, but now refreshed. With many games, this is an advantage, over players who play 'straight'. I know the compo is as far away from Twin Galaxies as its possible to get, but they expect grown adults to stand in front of machines all day long, to prove their score was legit. I dont think we need to enforce such extreme lengths, but at the same time, Twin Galaxies must also have rules for breaks?

We could say one 10min break per hour is ok, to visit the bathroom and generally take a breather, but as this is still a player agreement, players could use this excuse to have 10min breaks on every try, or roll together two breaks to have 20mins break after the first 50mins. The current agreement to pause when necessary is in fact more flexible, as it means players can use the bathroom, grab a drink, or a cigarette, during breaks between the levels, or by pressing Pause. It is rare that I do this, but with long games it can be extremely important to take a break after completing so many levels. Thats up to the player to decide.

As far as leaving games on overnight, this is another unwritten rule which ties in with no saves/savestates. If the player can select a level and return to it later at their convenience, this isnt really in the spirit of the compo. I'd say coming back the next day is a new try/attempt at the game, which brings in this rule - "Each try must start from level 1 (unless otherwise stated) and with the score on Zero."

john4p · 12 April 2020, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifeschool

As far as leaving games on overnight, this is another unwritten rule which ties in with no saves/savestates.

Not at all. You can reload the save(state) as often as you want. If you just pause the Amiga there's no advantage. To me it still counts as the same session even if you've paused the game and slept for 12 hours.

Note I haven't done this in the compo yet but I don't see a problem there and think this should be allowed.

lifeschool · 12 April 2020, 18:20

As BippyM says, I think this discussion is bogging down the thread. The rules say games should be played in one sitting, and so I hope arcanist can find time for another try.

At the moment, Jag is a long game to play, and takes maybe 4 hours to play it, using the levels we have chosen. I can understand of people dont have this time available, but during the lockdown it might be possible.

Jag Update:
I played the level through with Turbo mode today and have no issue with awarding half points for those who want to use it. It speeds the game up double, and makes corners twice as easy, although the opponents are still just as tough. Being able to turn corners means less damage, and more fun in general, although it takes less skill than those who run the races normally. I have the time to play this in normal mode, but I find the game is boring to play like that. Players must use the Turbo on all the tracks to get the Turbo score, (no mix and match), except for the final track of Egypt, which requires refuelling (i think?).

We could suggest everyone must play Turbo to keep the scores fair, or we could keep the current method of scoring it separately. Even though the non turbo mode is more difficult, it rewards those who have the time to spare to play it, and those who havent have no chance to catch the leaders. So it might be fairer to just say Everyone Use Turbo. ?

lifeschool · 13 April 2020, 14:12

As we head into week 2, it looking like the rules have settled down. Players can choose to use Turbo mode for half points, or normal mode for full points, although is also means sitting the full duration of the round.

Turbo mode:
--------------
From the music page, select any music track or sound effects, and then click mode, then Eject. Players who want to try turbo must use it on all tracks except the final one in Egypt.

I hope arcanist understands the reason for these changes and can post another score soon. Im open to players taking breaks, but overnight is more than just a break.

This month has been a series of concerns for everyone, and trying to find a nursing home for my mum has turned out to be a no-win situation. All I can say is please bare with us, and I hope all of these worries will end one day.

arcanist · 15 April 2020, 03:08

Turbo mode: 184,714,000

I forgot to click the radio button on one of the Egypt tracks. It reaffirmed my belief that turbo mode is a much better game, in spite of its simplicity.

lifeschool · 16 April 2020, 17:14

Thats great.

I feel the normal mode is no fun at all, but Turbo is like a different game. I totally recommend it.

I guess players can use normal mode during a Turbo run, as its only worth Turbo points no matter the position. I feel those who play turbo wont want to switch it off.

capehorn · 18 April 2020, 22:16

Slightly annoyingly I had to repair just about every part of my car with one race left, so I hope it doesn't come down to cash as a tie-breaker

366,055,000

Just for a bit of fun, this would have been my score had I competed in turbo mode.

212,664,000?

lifeschool · 21 April 2020, 01:23

Well played.

At least we found a good way to score this.

Last week to post your scores in this round. Dont forget to post your Mystery Votes too!

lifeschool · 26 April 2020, 01:45

This Round is Over

Jaguar XJ220
1 First place goes to capehorn

2. Second place is judolph

3. Third this time is john4p

A quiet round but Im happy we at least got to play it after all this time. Now on to something more shootery.

12 April 2020, 18:20	#29
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	As BippyM says, I think this discussion is bogging down the thread. The rules say games should be played in one sitting, and so I hope arcanist can find time for another try. At the moment, Jag is a long game to play, and takes maybe 4 hours to play it, using the levels we have chosen. I can understand of people dont have this time available, but during the lockdown it might be possible. Jag Update: I played the level through with Turbo mode today and have no issue with awarding half points for those who want to use it. It speeds the game up double, and makes corners twice as easy, although the opponents are still just as tough. Being able to turn corners means less damage, and more fun in general, although it takes less skill than those who run the races normally. I have the time to play this in normal mode, but I find the game is boring to play like that. Players must use the Turbo on all the tracks to get the Turbo score, (no mix and match), except for the final track of Egypt, which requires refuelling (i think?). We could suggest everyone must play Turbo to keep the scores fair, or we could keep the current method of scoring it separately. Even though the non turbo mode is more difficult, it rewards those who have the time to spare to play it, and those who havent have no chance to catch the leaders. So it might be fairer to just say Everyone Use Turbo. ? Last edited by lifeschool; 12 April 2020 at 18:38.

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11 April 2020, 18:38	#21
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	Malko - I apologise for mikes turn of words. You are quire right to point out that the mods might interpret comments the wrong way, (btw, mike IS the moderator on this forum) ..and write a note to say saving within the game (the save feature) isnt allowed, and neither is leaving the machine on all night and coming back the next day. This is covered in the player agreement section of the rules where we all agree to play all the games without a break, unless its a call of nature or some temporary necessary thing, where you come back straight away to the game and carry on. As some games go on for a long time, endurance is part of the challenge. Admittedly, I didnt expect this game to go on for such a long time. See the discussion about Turbo mode on Lemon. arcanist, Do you need to withdraw your score? Im very happy to do so, especially at this early stage. Its still early days as we head into the second week of the round, so there is an opportunity to improve, and score even more points.

12 April 2020, 12:50	#26
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	I have tidied this thread up, malko let it go. mihcael is only reiterating the rules, see my previous post on what I think on this matter. Back to the competition please gents

12 April 2020, 16:14	#27
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	Thats a good point about being able to sit for long periods. This wasnt an issue 10 years ago when I first joined, but in my 30s I didnt have the same issues as I now have in my 40s. Weak bladder and back ache being just two. Its important to understand the competition was set up for two clear reasons, first to run a fair and orderly challenge, with stratified scores, depending on personal ability and progress. Second, to have fun. But Fun cant come at the expense of fairness, or what is the point of fairness. Having a level playing field for all means we can trust each other to work within the limits of the rounds, and nobody is left wondering if XYZ is allowed, as unless it states it is allowed, it isnt. The 'no pausing' agreement came about after players reported taking showers, having a bite to eat, watching TV for a bit, and then going back to the point in the game where they left off, but now refreshed. With many games, this is an advantage, over players who play 'straight'. I know the compo is as far away from Twin Galaxies as its possible to get, but they expect grown adults to stand in front of machines all day long, to prove their score was legit. I dont think we need to enforce such extreme lengths, but at the same time, Twin Galaxies must also have rules for breaks? We could say one 10min break per hour is ok, to visit the bathroom and generally take a breather, but as this is still a player agreement, players could use this excuse to have 10min breaks on every try, or roll together two breaks to have 20mins break after the first 50mins. The current agreement to pause when necessary is in fact more flexible, as it means players can use the bathroom, grab a drink, or a cigarette, during breaks between the levels, or by pressing Pause. It is rare that I do this, but with long games it can be extremely important to take a break after completing so many levels. Thats up to the player to decide. As far as leaving games on overnight, this is another unwritten rule which ties in with no saves/savestates. If the player can select a level and return to it later at their convenience, this isnt really in the spirit of the compo. I'd say coming back the next day is a new try/attempt at the game, which brings in this rule - "Each try must start from level 1 (unless otherwise stated) and with the score on Zero."

13 April 2020, 14:12	#30
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	As we head into week 2, it looking like the rules have settled down. Players can choose to use Turbo mode for half points, or normal mode for full points, although is also means sitting the full duration of the round. Turbo mode: -------------- From the music page, select any music track or sound effects, and then click mode, then Eject. Players who want to try turbo must use it on all tracks except the final one in Egypt. I hope arcanist understands the reason for these changes and can post another score soon. Im open to players taking breaks, but overnight is more than just a break. This month has been a series of concerns for everyone, and trying to find a nursing home for my mum has turned out to be a no-win situation. All I can say is please bare with us, and I hope all of these worries will end one day.

15 April 2020, 03:08	#31
arcanist Registered User Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Austin, TX Age: 41 Posts: 406	Turbo mode: 184,714,000 I forgot to click the radio button on one of the Egypt tracks. It reaffirmed my belief that turbo mode is a much better game, in spite of its simplicity.

16 April 2020, 17:14	#32
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	Thats great. I feel the normal mode is no fun at all, but Turbo is like a different game. I totally recommend it. I guess players can use normal mode during a Turbo run, as its only worth Turbo points no matter the position. I feel those who play turbo wont want to switch it off.

18 April 2020, 22:16	#33
capehorn Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 1,794	Slightly annoyingly I had to repair just about every part of my car with one race left, so I hope it doesn't come down to cash as a tie-breaker 366,055,000 Just for a bit of fun, this would have been my score had I competed in turbo mode. 212,664,000?

21 April 2020, 01:23	#34
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	Well played. At least we found a good way to score this. Last week to post your scores in this round. Dont forget to post your Mystery Votes too!

26 April 2020, 01:45	#35
lifeschool Local Moderator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Age: 48 Posts: 1,591	This Round is Over Jaguar XJ220 1 First place goes to capehorn 2. Second place is judolph 3. Third this time is john4p A quiet round but Im happy we at least got to play it after all this time. Now on to something more shootery.

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