Why the fuss about IPF images?

[mc68060]

Originally Posted by BarryB

Yeah, out of literally hundreds and hundreds of games on various formats I've submitted over the years I only ever got back about 4 Amiga games in IPF format, the last stuff I submitted to their ftp was back in 2016

Looks like they're really dead then. Do you have a list of what you've submitted? The list over at http://softpres.org looks like it had its last update in 2006.

[dlfrsilver]

well ok Let's illustrate things out :

I will talk for my part. It happens that in fact, preservation is for me today almost a second full time job (unpaid!), that i do in addition over my full time job.
I feel sometimes exhausted, because i preserve games for CPC, Amiga and ST for many people in all my free time (when i'm back from work, and quite often the whole week-end).

Add to this that unfortunately, quite a lot of the disk submitted to me or sent to me are not only modified, unsupported, but with year, a tons of the disks are rotten, and dumps broken :/

For instance, i'll check and process all the games i can, for many contributors from many countries. I'll do my best to get them the IPFs out of their dumps, and the official ones when it applies.

Sometimes i feel really tired, if not to say exhausted by the load, but i continue. Just on Amstrad CPC, i have processed more than 1500 original games on my own, and almost 1000 in tape format.

On Amiga and ST, i have even stopped counting lol. SPS is not dead. Families, daily jobs and the actual shit tons of C64 games is i think why we don't hear about them, they do the best they can.

for the contributors, you know me here since a long time, i'm a work horse, and i'm all ears out if you need IPFs out of your dumps or if you can prove you own a game. Send me a good quality picture of your disks or game box, and i will send you the titles requested.

Please note however that most known and wanted games are already available on the net.

so yep, if SPS got late on some IPFs deliveries from dumps you uploaded, please voice out to me, i can help on this matter.

[Dunny]

Lol, SPS isn't dead, they've just had life issues for the past twelve years

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Lol, SPS isn't dead, they've just had life issues for the past twelve years

To be honest, either them or me or any other preservation association people, we have all underestimated the workload.

I had a talk with my colleague who offices in Japan for preservation, and we concluded that this is in fact a real day job.

To be honest, there are so many softwares to preserve that i could do that until i get 65 years old :/

[mc68060]

@dlfrsilver: So are you a SPS member?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by mc68060

@dlfrsilver: So are you a SPS member?

I am and it's not a secret

hint : SPS france

[Ian]

Thanks for the update, but I guess when people are sending stuff in and not even getting a responce, they will assume the project is dead, and rightly so in my opinion.

Can you shed some light on why IPFs aren't allowed to be uploaded to the zone? Has that period of the project now passed and we no longer need to bother with such a stupid rule?

As lets be honest, I'm sure they would be better shared here where someone has actually requested it, rather than a random website where someone will just download them all and probably not even want them, you know these people, the TOSEC whores (Like me ) who treat images/roms/whatevers like they are pokemon, regardless if they want them or not.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks for the update, but I guess when people are sending stuff in and not even getting a responce, they will assume the project is dead, and rightly so in my opinion.

The project is not dead. I'm alive, and anyone can contact me.

Can you shed some light on why IPFs aren't allowed to be uploaded to the zone? Has that period of the project now passed and we no longer need to bother with such a stupid rule?

IPF are seen by right holders as masters. And since most of them are already available in Tosec, there's no need to upload them.

For my part, and as it is since the beginning, no one is allowed to ask for IPF when this person doesn't have the original.

SPS will never be giving straight away IPFs on request without any submission on the other part or any proof of original ownership.

The law against software copying and piracy is still valid even for the retrogaming plateforms. I have been invited in december 2017 to a colloque at the french national Library in Paris, this in order to talk about many subjects.

I talked with the president of the French Video Games National council, about the laws on video games, which are a burden for preservation, because it is a problem on that matter. He told me that indeed, and he is not the only one that it doesn't help.

In order to preserve, we need people to be 'free-hands' and not potentially with a threat over their head.

The solution will only come from the politics and the exemption laws.

As lets be honest, I'm sure they would be better shared here where someone has actually requested it, rather than a random website where someone will just download them all and probably not even want them, you know these people, the TOSEC whores (Like me ) who treat images/roms/whatevers like they are pokemon, regardless if they want them or not.

Once the IPFs are out in the wild, SPS is no more responsible legally speaking. If collectors/contributors want to share the files, it's their choice.

The point is that those can't be publicly given by us.

Let's be clear, i won't jeopardize this gigantic project by giving IPFs myself.

I will help people who submitted games, but i will ignore unilateral demands or straight requests for IPF.

I have been asked to respect and make this rule respected, and since i gave my word, i will remain loyal to it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask

[Ian]

Think that clears it up nicely. I would never expect you or anyone still involved with SPS to upload the ipfs by the way.

For the ones already released by the people who were originally sent them though, these should be treated the same as all other formats then and be allowed in the zone under the same conditions as adf's.

We will have to discuss it in the team though before any changes are made to the rules.

Do you or anyone in the team that you are in contact with have an objections to a rule change if that is what is decided?

Feel free to PM me if you want to.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

And since most of them are already available in Tosec, there's no need to upload them.

Regarding TOSEC; as you probably know Denis, we have never allowed uploading of any SPS files to EAB or the EAB File Server...

Since you seem to be the only active SPS / IPF team member on EAB; are you saying we can now do this since they are all public anyway?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Ian

Think that clears it up nicely. I would never expect you or anyone still involved with SPS to upload the ipfs by the way.

For the ones already released by the people who were originally sent them though, these should be treated the same as all other formats then and be allowed in the zone under the same conditions as adf's.

We will have to discuss it in the team though before any changes are made to the rules.

Do you or anyone in the team that you are in contact with have an objections to a rule change if that is what is decided?

Feel free to PM me if you want to.

I can't speak for Mr Vince or IFW. You should ask them directly via the kryoflux forum.

[Dunny]

What about the IPF file format specification? The only description of the format (including the CAPS data) that I can find is speculative based on the behaviour of the library. Is there an official description anywhere?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Dunny

What about the IPF file format specification? The only description of the format (including the CAPS data) that I can find is speculative based on the behaviour of the library. Is there an official description anywhere?

the library has been opened for that matter. But only a programmer can implement it correctly in a tool or an emulator.

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

the library has been opened for that matter. But only a programmer can implement it correctly in a tool or an emulator.

So the library has been opened (and that's great), but is there a file format specification anywhere? If I were to support IPF images in my emulator, I'd need to basically reverse-engineer the format from how the library handles it?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Regarding TOSEC; as you probably know Denis, we have never allowed uploading of any SPS files to EAB or the EAB File Server...

Since you seem to be the only active SPS / IPF team member on EAB; are you saying we can now do this since they are all public anyway?

My colleagues are active as well, but on the C64 right now, and IFW is working on his side on the new toolchain.

Do not not put IPFs on the EAB server or upload on the forum. If you want an answer, contact IFW (istvan directly). I can't take a decision on this matter.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by Dunny

So the library has been opened (and that's great), but is there a file format specification anywhere? If I were to support IPF images in my emulator, I'd need to basically reverse-engineer the format from how the library handles it?

All the emulator authors have look the source, and added the support accordingly in their software.

If you're a programmer you will know where to look and what to use.

[Mikerochip]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

The project is not dead. I'm alive, and anyone can contact me.

I know you're in France and such, but is there any way you can help me get my original games back??

I only loaned them to the project on the condition I'd get the back after the dumps were done.

I've been ignored now for more than a few years asking for their return. (They're in the UK)

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

Do not not put IPFs on the EAB server or upload on the forum. If you want an answer, contact IFW (istvan directly). I can't take a decision on this matter.

Obviously at this present time, the above will not occur as the rules still apply

...not being funny, but not you or any other SPS member make the rules here.

Also, I don't see why we need to join some "kryoflux" forum in order to try to contact / ask them their opinion!!!

Anyway; this is really a matter for RCK / Global Moderators and Moderators to discuss now in private; considering no other IPF member can be bothered to visit here (and haven't done in many years)... they clearly don't care what happens on EAB anymore...

[Ian]

It was going so well lol

If you or anyone from SPS can give a single valid reason why they shouldn't be shared on an Amiga forum despite being readily available on the internet for anyone with even minor Google skills then please make them known.

if you want to moan about someone sharing them maybe you should talk to the people who released the ipfs they were given by the project.

I do not see a single reason why we, or anyone else for that matter should treat it any differently from any other archive format.

It's not a preservation project if only 1 person outside of SPS has the file.

[BarryB]

I think everyone (including SPS) woefully underestimated how difficult and time consuming software preservation is, and as Denis says, it's a skilled endeavour, unpaid and voluntary and seems to now encompass every disk format ever made! Having to manually analyse EVERY single dump and determine if it's 100% the same as when it left the duplicator, modified, duplicator/mastering error or just a bad disk takes a lot of knowledge and time! Also, designing the Kryoflux hardware wasn't a five minute job and the fact they made the schematics available to anyone to make their own wasn't a selfless act! Also programming the dtc software to dump all those disk formats isn't a five minute job either, and that time has to be balanced between their real life commitments and the SPS 'hobby'!

No wonder only Denis is left on the EAB forum from all the criticism directed towards SPS regards the availability of IPF's and the 'agreement' not to make them available here despite the wide availability on sites outside of EAB, so until there is a mechanism in place to deal with sending IPF's to contributors they will always be criticised I think.