Problems using SuperCard Pro .scp image files

mark_k · 13 November 2016, 19:13

I've been using a SuperCard Pro to create image files from some original Amiga game disks. I created the image files with the SCP program v1.91, set to capture 84 tracks (0-83), 5 revolutions of data for each track.

On loading some .scp files into WinUAE, WinUAE reports disk decode problems. I'm not sure whether this indicates a bug in the SCP software, flaky disks or a problem with WinUAE, but figured I'd post about it here anyway.

Archive of "problem" .scp files (~80.7MB, remove ! after pasting into your web browser):

Code:

https://www.media!fire.com/?b3k1c1amkc1cx9e

Populous (The Hit Squad)
Disk decode: sector 5, data checksum error

Game starts to load OK but it ends up stuck at black screen.

Zool disk 1 (Amiga Zool Pack version)
Disk decode: weird sector number 77 (aaba4d91, 39)
Disk decode: weird sector number 77 (aaba4d91, 6373)

Seem to boot OK. At least it gets to the copy-protection code entry screen.

F17 Challenge
Boots (at least the screen goes black) then repeats reading tracks 0 and 1(?) over and over.

Award Winners Gold Edition

Sensible Soccer disk 1:
Disk decode: sector 3, data checksum error
Disk decode: weird sector number 242 (f39af27d, 52)
Disk decode: weird sector number 242 (f39af27d, 6386)

Doesn't boot (insert WB screen)

Zool disk 1:
Disk decode: sector 4, data checksum error
Disk decode: weird sector number 190 (beeabe81, 79)
Disk decode: weird sector number 190 (beeabe81, 6413)

Doesn't boot (insert WB screen)

Elite:
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 0 header (FF2A000B)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 1 header (FF2A010A)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 2 header (FF2A0209)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 3 header (FF2A0308)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 4 header (FF2A0407)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 5 header (FF2A0506)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 6 header (FF2A0605)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 7 header (FF2A0704)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 8 header (FF2A0803)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 9 header (FF2A0902)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 10 header (FF2A0A01)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 0 header (FF2A000B)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 1 header (FF2A010A)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 2 header (FF2A0209)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 3 header (FF2A0308)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 4 header (FF2A0407)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 5 header (FF2A0506)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 6 header (FF2A0605)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 7 header (FF2A0704)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 8 header (FF2A0803)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 9 header (FF2A0902)
Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 10 header (FF2A0A01)

Starts loading. Gets to track 78, then seeks to 68, reads from there to 78, repeat over and over.

Arnie · 14 November 2016, 13:39

I have one of these cards. Unfortunately I don't have the same disks as you to test with.
I have managed to make successful images of Cannonfodder & Timekeepers.

Have you tried using Splice or Index? I have found that some disks that don't work with one will work with the other. Oh, and I only use 2 revolutions of data.

mark_k · 14 November 2016, 14:36

I've been using the Splice option because Index doesn't allow the number of revolutions to be changed.

I'm hoping the problem is with the PLL code used in WinUAE (which is used to convert the flux transition timing data to MFM), not that all the disks I dumped are going bad.

Retroplay · 14 November 2016, 14:47

I assume you're on Linux as the file you uploaded is a tar.xz archive.

Have you tried to convert these to ipf with disk-tools ?
https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities

According to formats file they should all be supported.
https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilit...nalyse/formats

[edit]
Tested them myself, only Zool from Amiga Zool Pack seems to be okay:

Code:

disk-analyse -f"Zool" Zool_disk_1.scp Zool_disk_1.ipf
T0.0-0.1: AmigaDOS
T1.0-78.1: Gremlin Graphics
T79.0: Unformatted
T79.1: Gremlin Graphics
T80.0-83.1: Unformatted

The rest of them not so much:

Code:

disk-analyse -f"F17 Challenge" F17_Challenge_disk_1.scp F17_Challenge_disk_1.ipf
T0.1: sectors 1,2, missing
T0.0-0.1: AmigaDOS
T1.0-52.1: RNC PDOS
T53.0: Unformatted*
T53.1: RNC PDOS
T54.0: Unformatted*
T54.1: RNC PDOS
T55.0: Unformatted*
T55.1: RNC PDOS
T56.0: Unformatted*
T56.1-79.1: RNC PDOS
T80.0-83.1: Unformatted
** WARNING: 5 tracks are damaged or unidentified!

disk-analyse -f"Populous" Populous.scp Populous.ipfT76.1: sectors 3, missing
T77.1: sectors 1, missing
T78.1: sectors 10, missing
T79.1: sectors 9, missing
T0.0-79.1: AmigaDOS
T80.0-83.1: Unformatted
** WARNING: 4 tracks are damaged or unidentified!

disk-analyse -f"Zool" 3_of_6_Zool_Disk_1_of_2.scp 3_of_6_Zool_disk_1_of_2.ipf
T0.0: sectors 4, missing
T0.1: sectors 4, missing
T0.0-0.1: AmigaDOS
T1.0: Gremlin Graphics
T1.1-6.0: Unformatted*
T6.1: Gremlin Graphics
T7.0: Unformatted*
T7.1: Gremlin Graphics
T8.0: Unformatted*
T8.1-9.1: Gremlin Graphics
T10.0: Unformatted*
T10.1: Gremlin Graphics
T11.0-11.1: Unformatted*
T12.0-33.0: Gremlin Graphics
T33.1: Unformatted*
T34.0-74.0: Gremlin Graphics
T74.1: Unformatted*
T75.0: Gremlin Graphics
T75.1: Unformatted*
T76.0: Gremlin Graphics
T76.1: Unformatted*
T77.0: Gremlin Graphics
T77.1: Unformatted*
T78.0: Gremlin Graphics
T78.1: Unformatted*
T79.0: Unformatted
T79.1: Unformatted*
T80.0-83.1: Unformatted
** WARNING: 24 tracks are damaged or unidentified!

disk-analyse -f"Sensible Soccer" 1_of_6_Sensible_Soccer_Disk_1_of_2.scp 1_of_6_Sensible_Soccer_disk_1_of_2.ipf
T0.0: sectors 3, missing
T0.0: AmigaDOS
T0.1-30.0: Sensible Software
T30.1: Unformatted*
T31.0: Sensible Software
T31.1: Unformatted*
T32.0-79.1: Sensible Software
T80.0-83.1: Unformatted                                                                                       
** WARNING: 3 tracks are damaged or unidentified!  

disk-analyse -f"Elite" 6_of_6_Elite.scp 6_of_6_Elite.ipf                                                                               
T26.1: sectors 2, missing                                                                                     
T27.1: sectors 2, missing                                                                                     
T28.1: sectors 2, missing
T29.1: sectors 2, missing
T30.1: sectors 2, missing
T31.1: sectors 2, missing
T32.1: sectors 2, missing
T33.1: sectors 2, missing
T34.1: sectors 2, missing
T35.1: sectors 2, missing
T36.1: sectors 2, missing
T37.1: sectors 2, missing
T38.1: sectors 2, missing
T39.1: sectors 2,3, missing
T40.1: sectors 2, missing
T41.1: sectors 2, missing
T42.1: sectors 2, missing
T43.1: sectors 2, missing
T44.1: sectors 2, missing
T45.1: sectors 2, missing
T46.1: sectors 2, missing
T47.1: sectors 2, missing
T48.1: sectors 2, missing
T49.1: sectors 2, missing
T61.1: sectors 9, missing
T62.1: sectors 9, missing
T63.1: sectors 9, missing
T64.1: sectors 9, missing
T65.1: sectors 9, missing
T66.1: sectors 9, missing
T67.1: sectors 9, missing
T68.1: sectors 9, missing
T69.0: sectors 2, missing
T69.1: sectors 9, missing
T70.0: sectors 2, missing
T70.1: sectors 9, missing
T71.0: sectors 2, missing
T71.1: sectors 9, missing
T72.0: sectors 2, missing
T72.1: sectors 9, missing
T73.0: sectors 2, missing
T73.1: sectors 9, missing
T74.0: sectors 2, missing
T74.1: sectors 9, missing
T75.0: sectors 2, missing
T75.1: sectors 9, missing
T76.0: sectors 2, missing
T76.1: sectors 9, missing
T77.0: sectors 2, missing
T77.1: sectors 9, missing
T78.0: sectors 2, missing
T78.1: sectors 9, missing
T79.0: sectors 2, missing
T79.1: sectors 9, missing
T0.0: AmigaDOS
T0.1: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T1.0: AmigaDOS
T1.1-24.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T24.1: AmigaDOS
T25.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T25.1: AmigaDOS
T26.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T26.1: AmigaDOS
T27.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T27.1: AmigaDOS
T28.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T28.1: AmigaDOS
T29.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T29.1: AmigaDOS
T30.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T30.1: AmigaDOS
T31.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T31.1: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T32.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T32.1: AmigaDOS
T33.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T33.1: AmigaDOS
T34.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T34.1: AmigaDOS
T35.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T35.1: AmigaDOS
T36.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T36.1: AmigaDOS
T37.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T37.1: AmigaDOS
T38.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T38.1: AmigaDOS
T39.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T39.1: AmigaDOS
T40.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T40.1: AmigaDOS
T41.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T41.1: AmigaDOS
T42.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T42.1: AmigaDOS
T43.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T43.1: AmigaDOS
T44.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T44.1: AmigaDOS
T45.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T45.1: AmigaDOS
T46.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T46.1: AmigaDOS
T47.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T47.1: AmigaDOS
T48.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T48.1: AmigaDOS
T49.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T49.1: AmigaDOS
T50.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T50.1: AmigaDOS
T51.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T51.1: AmigaDOS
T52.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T52.1: AmigaDOS
T53.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T53.1: AmigaDOS
T54.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T54.1: AmigaDOS
T55.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T55.1: AmigaDOS
T56.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T56.1: AmigaDOS
T57.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T57.1: AmigaDOS
T58.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T58.1: AmigaDOS
T59.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T59.1: AmigaDOS
T60.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T60.1: AmigaDOS
T61.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T61.1: AmigaDOS
T62.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T62.1: AmigaDOS
T63.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T63.1: AmigaDOS
T64.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T64.1: AmigaDOS
T65.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T65.1: AmigaDOS
T66.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T66.1: AmigaDOS
T67.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T67.1: AmigaDOS
T68.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Header)
T68.1: AmigaDOS
T69.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T69.1: AmigaDOS
T70.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T70.1: AmigaDOS
T71.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T71.1: AmigaDOS
T72.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T72.1: AmigaDOS
T73.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T73.1: AmigaDOS
T74.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T74.1: AmigaDOS
T75.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T75.1: AmigaDOS
T76.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T76.1: AmigaDOS
T77.0: AmigaDOS Extended (Sync, Header)
T77.1-79.1: AmigaDOS
T80.0-83.1: Unformatted
** WARNING: 54 tracks are damaged or unidentified!

mark_k · 14 November 2016, 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retroplay

I assume you're on Linux as the file you uploaded is a tar.xz archive.

Have you tried to convert these to ipf with disk-tools ?
https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities

Thanks for the tip and testing the files. I downloaded Disk-Utilities and compiled it a few days ago, but didn't have the IPF-related header files installed at the time.

emufan · 14 November 2016, 18:17

Jeffs HxC Emulator software ( HxCFloppyEmulator software v2.1.4.0 ) features an extensive log/debug window,
when you load an image, may help too.

mark_k · 14 November 2016, 20:42

Thanks for that! Downloaded and played around with that a bit.

I've uploaded a couple more example SCP dumps to:

Code:

https://www.media!fire.com/?cv34guxy85252pu

TransWrite from the Amiga Zool Pack and Trojan Lightpen driver. Both seem to work OK in WinUAE, both are unprotected. Looking at the disk view in HxC emulator, there's a clear difference between TransWrite (professionally mastered I guess) and the Trojan disk (probably written on an Amiga).

Retroplay · 14 November 2016, 21:10

I've zoned converted images from your working dumps in the zone, just in case it's needed.

TransWrite & Trojan Lightpen both seems to be in good working order.

JimDrew · 15 November 2016, 03:04

Your drive has a problem. It's either motor or power related. The images have horrible "wobbles" in them.

mark_k · 15 November 2016, 20:56

Thanks. I'd rather it be a problem like that than all the disks being bad.

The problem wasn't obvious, since the drive speed test says a pretty constant 299.7rpm and the disk media test passed.

I'll try powering the drive from a different source and/or using a different Molex-to-floppy power adaptor cable, maybe that could help. (Also, could soldering a capacitor between the floppy power connector ground and 5V pins help?)

JimDrew · 16 November 2016, 17:08

The problem with the drive speed test is that it requires a full revolution between readings. You could have a stuck spindle (or stuck disk in the jacket) part way through the rotation causing the drive speed to slow down briefly, at which point the motor will greatly speed up and then back down. It could (and does) even out to make the driver speed look correct when in fact it is not. A power problem, especially when powering a 3.5" drive from the SCP directly, will definitely show up like this. You have to plug the SCP into a 500mA capable USB port in order to power a drive from it.

mark_k · 16 November 2016, 18:19

I have the drive in an old SCSI enclosure, powering it from the enclosure's supply. I measured 5.1V at the Molex connector with the drive powered on but inactive. I replaced the Molex-to-floppy power adaptor I was using, no change.

(Drives are specified to have a much larger maximum current draw than the 500mA provided by a USB 2.0 port, so I didn't want to risk damaging my laptop powering the drive from USB via the SCP board.)

Looking at the Elite dump using the HxC software that emufan mentioned, it's clear that something is amiss because the bitcell timings look "wobbly" in the graph. With various other disks though (see the TransWrite dump), the lines are much smoother. Perhaps this drive has trouble rotating some disks at the correct speed, maybe if the disc is physically harder to turn in its jacket???

Next step will be to power the drive from a different supply. Then if that doesn't help swap out the drive. It was manufactured in 2006 and was in storage since then. Could a dried-out/leaky capacitor in the drive explain it?

demolition · 16 November 2016, 21:46

My guess is that it can be caused by mold inside the floppy if some disks are worse than others. If you listen closely, you can hear the periodic variation in the rotation. I can clearly hear it on some disks and not on others.

Imagine a floppy which has been sitting still for 20 years and mold develops in one area for whatever reason. It will spread out on the magnetic surface as well as the cotton layer inside and every time the two areas meet when it rotates, it creates some extra drag.

Now if the problem is the same with all floppies, then my guess would be a sticky motor/bearing. Just use another drive.

mark_k · 16 November 2016, 22:12

I pulled back each disk shutter to check for mould on the visible disk surface (didn't rotate the disk inside the shell), didn't see any. I wonder if humidity/condensation inside could explain the problem.

Perhaps some drives are more susceptible to speed-variation when accessing such disks; e.g. if the motor torque is lower than other models, or the motor flywheel is less heavy?

I swapped the drive for another one of the same model, no change.

demolition · 16 November 2016, 22:25

Mold on floppies has to be quite severe to be seen directly. If you can see it, you'll usually also hear the head squeaking or whining.

When I was dumping some really moldy C64 floppies recently, some of them were slipping quite badly on the motor due to the extra drag. I found that adding some drops of IPA to the floppy surface while it was spinning in the drive lubricated it quite nicely so it would spin without slipping and I had much better success in dumping the contents. I don't know if it causes any damage to the disk or drive but since IPA is used for cleaning both things I wouldn't think so. Just let it spin until it has completely evaporated again so the IPA won't stay inside the floppy for a long time which could possibly damage the surface (or it might also inhibit further mold growth - who knows?

).

JimDrew · 17 November 2016, 00:43

You'll be able to hear a disk that has a problem quite easily. You should not hear any repeating "swoosh swoosh swoosh" sound. The disk should be uniformly quiet while spinning.

If some disks are quiet and some are noisy, then the noisy ones either have some type of debris on them (part of the surface), or the plastic substrate itself has been warped due to heat or pressure from something laying on it.

If all disks are quiet and the results are wobbly, it's the drive or power supply. I have to say though that your disk images are among the worst I have seen so far.

I would never recommend cleaning a disk while it is spinning. All you are doing is moving the debris to other locations and when the inner liner dries, it will drop the debris back onto the disk surface again. To clean a disk properly, you need to clean the exposed surface (through the slot) using a clean cotton swab and 80% or better alcohol. Saturate the cotton swab and lightly (using just the weight of the cotton swab) swipe it up and down (long ways) across the exposed slot. Repeat using new cotton swabs until the cotton swab has no residue (typically dark brown), then rotate the disk 3/4 of the way through the slot and repeat until the entire disk is clean. Yep, it's a pain! Don't forget that the heads are backwards from the physical side... so for a 5.25" disk the bottom side of the disk is the one that is read (until you flip it over)... don't clean the top side of the disk thinking that will make the disk read better.

Also, don't forget that you should be cleaning the heads just about every single time you are dumping a disk.

demolition · 17 November 2016, 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimDrew

I would never recommend cleaning a disk while it is spinning. All you are doing is moving the debris to other locations and when the inner liner dries, it will drop the debris back onto the disk surface again.

True, I wasn't considering it a cleaning neither. In fact, the disk had been cut open and cleaned on both sides using IPA and a microfibre cloth before it was put into a clean sleeve for dumping. Still it would have a lot of drag since the mold had roughed up the surface quite a bit (these disks were very bad with clear white mold deposits). The IPA really helped to lubricate the cleaned platter so it could spin freely for a while until it evaporated.

JimDrew · 18 November 2016, 05:12

I have a 3.5" disk case that snaps together and unsnaps easily. When I get a disk that is really moldy, I carefully rip apart the case and remove and clean the disk, and then put it in the case that snaps together for making an image.

mark_k · 19 November 2016, 17:05

Most images I uploaded before were ones I noticed didn't load in WinUAE, so hopefully don't reflect the quality of a dump from a good/working disk. I think the most likely problem is with the disks. I didn't try loading them all into WinUAE but most of the "bad" ones were bought from the same source so would have been stored in the same conditions for ~20 years.

The other day I used a different power supply and different drive (Teac FD-235HF) but got a similar result with the Elite and Sensible Soccer disks.

I have uploaded an archive containing various dumps I made, with both the Citizen Z1DE and Teac drives (~206MB). Also a dump of the Metacomco Shell disk made with Teac FD-235HF drive (forgot to include it in the main archive):

Code:

https://www.media!fire.com/?fwb11oe6r6xbaxx
https://www.media!fire.com/?ayk2lkw69fc73sb

Looking at them in HxCFloppyEmulator there aren't huge wobbles with some of the dumps, and the Elite and Sensi Soccer dumps on FD-235HF are similarly wobbly to the ones made using the Citizen drive. Hopefully this means my drives are OK. The disks, not so much...

Having said that, comparing the Metacomco Shell dumps (and maybe Sensi Soccer) from Citizen and Teac drives, HxCFloppyEmulator is able to fully decode the Teac MCC Shell dump, but not the Citizen dump.

My theory is that the more the disk is read, the more any debris can be removed by head movement and the disc rotating against the liner material. I'll try reading them again in the Citizen drive and see if they are fully-decodeable.

Archive contents:
Yet_more_SCP_images/
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Blasteroids.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Dizzy_Dice.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Karate_Kid_II.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Asterix_Operation_Getafix.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Chess_Player_2150.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Onslaught.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Trivial_Pursuit.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Pipe_Mania.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Rick_Dangerous.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Rock_n_Roll.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Metacomco_Shell_1.2_SN610.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Marble_Madness.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/SuSE_Linux_6.2/
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/SuSE_Linux_6.2/Bootdisk_LA_0238.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/SuSE_Linux_6.2/Modules_LA_0239.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/
Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/2nd_Empty_Maxell_MF2DD.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/Award_Winners_Gold_Edition/
Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/Award_Winners_Gold_Edition/1_of_6_Sensible_Soccer_Disk_1_of_2.scp
Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/Award_Winners_Gold_Edition/6_of_6_Elite.scp

Retroplay · 19 November 2016, 19:09

Thanks for the dumps mark.

Is Karate Kid II not supposed to have a startup-sequence btw ?

13 November 2016, 19:13	#1
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	Problems using SuperCard Pro .scp image files I've been using a SuperCard Pro to create image files from some original Amiga game disks. I created the image files with the SCP program v1.91, set to capture 84 tracks (0-83), 5 revolutions of data for each track. On loading some .scp files into WinUAE, WinUAE reports disk decode problems. I'm not sure whether this indicates a bug in the SCP software, flaky disks or a problem with WinUAE, but figured I'd post about it here anyway. Archive of "problem" .scp files (~80.7MB, remove ! after pasting into your web browser): Code: https://www.media!fire.com/?b3k1c1amkc1cx9e Populous (The Hit Squad) Disk decode: sector 5, data checksum error Game starts to load OK but it ends up stuck at black screen. Zool disk 1 (Amiga Zool Pack version) Disk decode: weird sector number 77 (aaba4d91, 39) Disk decode: weird sector number 77 (aaba4d91, 6373) Seem to boot OK. At least it gets to the copy-protection code entry screen. F17 Challenge Boots (at least the screen goes black) then repeats reading tracks 0 and 1(?) over and over. Award Winners Gold Edition Sensible Soccer disk 1: Disk decode: sector 3, data checksum error Disk decode: weird sector number 242 (f39af27d, 52) Disk decode: weird sector number 242 (f39af27d, 6386) Doesn't boot (insert WB screen) Zool disk 1: Disk decode: sector 4, data checksum error Disk decode: weird sector number 190 (beeabe81, 79) Disk decode: weird sector number 190 (beeabe81, 6413) Doesn't boot (insert WB screen) Elite: Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 0 header (FF2A000B) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 1 header (FF2A010A) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 2 header (FF2A0209) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 3 header (FF2A0308) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 4 header (FF2A0407) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 5 header (FF2A0506) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 6 header (FF2A0605) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 7 header (FF2A0704) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 8 header (FF2A0803) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 9 header (FF2A0902) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 10 header (FF2A0A01) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 0 header (FF2A000B) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 1 header (FF2A010A) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 2 header (FF2A0209) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 3 header (FF2A0308) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 4 header (FF2A0407) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 5 header (FF2A0506) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 6 header (FF2A0605) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 7 header (FF2A0704) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 8 header (FF2A0803) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 9 header (FF2A0902) Disk decode: mismatched track (42 <> 80) on sector 10 header (FF2A0A01) Starts loading. Gets to track 78, then seeks to 68, reads from there to 78, repeat over and over.

14 November 2016, 20:42	#7
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	Thanks for that! Downloaded and played around with that a bit. I've uploaded a couple more example SCP dumps to: Code: https://www.media!fire.com/?cv34guxy85252pu TransWrite from the Amiga Zool Pack and Trojan Lightpen driver. Both seem to work OK in WinUAE, both are unprotected. Looking at the disk view in HxC emulator, there's a clear difference between TransWrite (professionally mastered I guess) and the Trojan disk (probably written on an Amiga).

17 November 2016, 00:43	#16
JimDrew Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ Posts: 741	You'll be able to hear a disk that has a problem quite easily. You should not hear any repeating "swoosh swoosh swoosh" sound. The disk should be uniformly quiet while spinning. If some disks are quiet and some are noisy, then the noisy ones either have some type of debris on them (part of the surface), or the plastic substrate itself has been warped due to heat or pressure from something laying on it. If all disks are quiet and the results are wobbly, it's the drive or power supply. I have to say though that your disk images are among the worst I have seen so far. I would never recommend cleaning a disk while it is spinning. All you are doing is moving the debris to other locations and when the inner liner dries, it will drop the debris back onto the disk surface again. To clean a disk properly, you need to clean the exposed surface (through the slot) using a clean cotton swab and 80% or better alcohol. Saturate the cotton swab and lightly (using just the weight of the cotton swab) swipe it up and down (long ways) across the exposed slot. Repeat using new cotton swabs until the cotton swab has no residue (typically dark brown), then rotate the disk 3/4 of the way through the slot and repeat until the entire disk is clean. Yep, it's a pain! Don't forget that the heads are backwards from the physical side... so for a 5.25" disk the bottom side of the disk is the one that is read (until you flip it over)... don't clean the top side of the disk thinking that will make the disk read better. Also, don't forget that you should be cleaning the heads just about every single time you are dumping a disk. Last edited by JimDrew; 17 November 2016 at 00:57.

19 November 2016, 17:05	#19
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	Most images I uploaded before were ones I noticed didn't load in WinUAE, so hopefully don't reflect the quality of a dump from a good/working disk. I think the most likely problem is with the disks. I didn't try loading them all into WinUAE but most of the "bad" ones were bought from the same source so would have been stored in the same conditions for ~20 years. The other day I used a different power supply and different drive (Teac FD-235HF) but got a similar result with the Elite and Sensible Soccer disks. I have uploaded an archive containing various dumps I made, with both the Citizen Z1DE and Teac drives (~206MB). Also a dump of the Metacomco Shell disk made with Teac FD-235HF drive (forgot to include it in the main archive): Code: https://www.media!fire.com/?fwb11oe6r6xbaxx https://www.media!fire.com/?ayk2lkw69fc73sb Looking at them in HxCFloppyEmulator there aren't huge wobbles with some of the dumps, and the Elite and Sensi Soccer dumps on FD-235HF are similarly wobbly to the ones made using the Citizen drive. Hopefully this means my drives are OK. The disks, not so much... Having said that, comparing the Metacomco Shell dumps (and maybe Sensi Soccer) from Citizen and Teac drives, HxCFloppyEmulator is able to fully decode the Teac MCC Shell dump, but not the Citizen dump. My theory is that the more the disk is read, the more any debris can be removed by head movement and the disc rotating against the liner material. I'll try reading them again in the Citizen drive and see if they are fully-decodeable. Archive contents: Yet_more_SCP_images/ Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/ Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Blasteroids.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Dizzy_Dice.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Karate_Kid_II.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/ Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Asterix_Operation_Getafix.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Chess_Player_2150.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Onslaught.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Trivial_Pursuit.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Pipe_Mania.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Rick_Dangerous.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Arcade_Action_Pack/Rock_n_Roll.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Metacomco_Shell_1.2_SN610.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/Marble_Madness.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/SuSE_Linux_6.2/ Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/SuSE_Linux_6.2/Bootdisk_LA_0238.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Citizen_Z1DE/SuSE_Linux_6.2/Modules_LA_0239.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/ Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/2nd_Empty_Maxell_MF2DD.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/Award_Winners_Gold_Edition/ Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/Award_Winners_Gold_Edition/1_of_6_Sensible_Soccer_Disk_1_of_2.scp Yet_more_SCP_images/Teac_FD-235HF_F160327/Award_Winners_Gold_Edition/6_of_6_Elite.scp

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
SCP disk image support in FS-UAE	JimDrew	support.FS-UAE	16	10 November 2022 14:10
.SCP and KryoFlux image request.	Mclane	support.WinUAE	56	05 September 2017 16:55
SuperCard Pro and Keirf Disk Utilities	mark_k	support.Other	4	13 December 2016 07:22
SuperCard Pro disk recovery to ADF	JimDrew	News	9	11 April 2014 23:05
Supercard Pro Case	kipper2k	Hardware mods	4	25 March 2014 20:45

14 November 2016, 13:39	#2
Arnie R.I.P Smudge 18-08-16 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Leicester/UK Age: 66 Posts: 3,968	I have one of these cards. Unfortunately I don't have the same disks as you to test with. I have managed to make successful images of Cannonfodder & Timekeepers. Have you tried using Splice or Index? I have found that some disks that don't work with one will work with the other. Oh, and I only use 2 revolutions of data.

14 November 2016, 14:36	#3
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	I've been using the Splice option because Index doesn't allow the number of revolutions to be changed. I'm hoping the problem is with the PLL code used in WinUAE (which is used to convert the flux transition timing data to MFM), not that all the disks I dumped are going bad.

14 November 2016, 18:17	#6
emufan Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: #DrainTheSwamp Posts: 4,545	Jeffs HxC Emulator software ( HxCFloppyEmulator software v2.1.4.0 ) features an extensive log/debug window, when you load an image, may help too.

14 November 2016, 21:10	#8
Retroplay Lemon Curry ? Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Denmark Age: 49 Posts: 4,136	I've zoned converted images from your working dumps in the zone, just in case it's needed. TransWrite & Trojan Lightpen both seems to be in good working order.

15 November 2016, 03:04	#9
JimDrew Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ Posts: 741	Your drive has a problem. It's either motor or power related. The images have horrible "wobbles" in them.

15 November 2016, 20:56	#10
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	Thanks. I'd rather it be a problem like that than all the disks being bad. The problem wasn't obvious, since the drive speed test says a pretty constant 299.7rpm and the disk media test passed. I'll try powering the drive from a different source and/or using a different Molex-to-floppy power adaptor cable, maybe that could help. (Also, could soldering a capacitor between the floppy power connector ground and 5V pins help?)

16 November 2016, 17:08	#11
JimDrew Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ Posts: 741	The problem with the drive speed test is that it requires a full revolution between readings. You could have a stuck spindle (or stuck disk in the jacket) part way through the rotation causing the drive speed to slow down briefly, at which point the motor will greatly speed up and then back down. It could (and does) even out to make the driver speed look correct when in fact it is not. A power problem, especially when powering a 3.5" drive from the SCP directly, will definitely show up like this. You have to plug the SCP into a 500mA capable USB port in order to power a drive from it.

16 November 2016, 18:19	#12
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	I have the drive in an old SCSI enclosure, powering it from the enclosure's supply. I measured 5.1V at the Molex connector with the drive powered on but inactive. I replaced the Molex-to-floppy power adaptor I was using, no change. (Drives are specified to have a much larger maximum current draw than the 500mA provided by a USB 2.0 port, so I didn't want to risk damaging my laptop powering the drive from USB via the SCP board.) Looking at the Elite dump using the HxC software that emufan mentioned, it's clear that something is amiss because the bitcell timings look "wobbly" in the graph. With various other disks though (see the TransWrite dump), the lines are much smoother. Perhaps this drive has trouble rotating some disks at the correct speed, maybe if the disc is physically harder to turn in its jacket??? Next step will be to power the drive from a different supply. Then if that doesn't help swap out the drive. It was manufactured in 2006 and was in storage since then. Could a dried-out/leaky capacitor in the drive explain it?

16 November 2016, 21:46	#13
demolition Unregistered User Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Copenhagen / DK Age: 44 Posts: 4,190	My guess is that it can be caused by mold inside the floppy if some disks are worse than others. If you listen closely, you can hear the periodic variation in the rotation. I can clearly hear it on some disks and not on others. Imagine a floppy which has been sitting still for 20 years and mold develops in one area for whatever reason. It will spread out on the magnetic surface as well as the cotton layer inside and every time the two areas meet when it rotates, it creates some extra drag. Now if the problem is the same with all floppies, then my guess would be a sticky motor/bearing. Just use another drive.

16 November 2016, 22:12	#14
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,349	I pulled back each disk shutter to check for mould on the visible disk surface (didn't rotate the disk inside the shell), didn't see any. I wonder if humidity/condensation inside could explain the problem. Perhaps some drives are more susceptible to speed-variation when accessing such disks; e.g. if the motor torque is lower than other models, or the motor flywheel is less heavy? I swapped the drive for another one of the same model, no change.

16 November 2016, 22:25	#15
demolition Unregistered User Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Copenhagen / DK Age: 44 Posts: 4,190	Mold on floppies has to be quite severe to be seen directly. If you can see it, you'll usually also hear the head squeaking or whining. When I was dumping some really moldy C64 floppies recently, some of them were slipping quite badly on the motor due to the extra drag. I found that adding some drops of IPA to the floppy surface while it was spinning in the drive lubricated it quite nicely so it would spin without slipping and I had much better success in dumping the contents. I don't know if it causes any damage to the disk or drive but since IPA is used for cleaning both things I wouldn't think so. Just let it spin until it has completely evaporated again so the IPA won't stay inside the floppy for a long time which could possibly damage the surface (or it might also inhibit further mold growth - who knows? ).

18 November 2016, 05:12	#18
JimDrew Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ Posts: 741	I have a 3.5" disk case that snaps together and unsnaps easily. When I get a disk that is really moldy, I carefully rip apart the case and remove and clean the disk, and then put it in the case that snaps together for making an image.

19 November 2016, 19:09	#20
Retroplay Lemon Curry ? Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Denmark Age: 49 Posts: 4,136	Thanks for the dumps mark. Is Karate Kid II not supposed to have a startup-sequence btw ?

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)