Logic analyzer: Was Better (perhaps) A500 compatibility

Toni Wilen · 03 August 2007, 21:12

More information later

keropi · 03 August 2007, 21:17

oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh

DamienD · 03 August 2007, 21:23

Nice one Toni

BippyM · 03 August 2007, 21:46

that does what exactly?

Zetr0 · 03 August 2007, 22:00

@bippym

The WinUAE master, is attempting to probe the far reaches of the known and unknown universe that is the A500.

Armed with what seems a nice usb reporting logic probe / analyser may lead the intrepid emu-guru to greater knowledge upon how the *undocumented* features of the A500 work.

I am hoping, that Toni's endevor provides fruitfull, and bares fruit in the form of improved emulation of a500 features

*pssst.... it looks to me like Toni is investigating something to do with the video timing perhaps.... but i could be wrong (and most likely am its been way to long since i use an a500 let alone a logic analyser / probe thingy)

Ironclaw · 03 August 2007, 22:01

Can the a500 emulation really be any better?

. Seems perfect to me already

. Well, remember some stuff now.. ok 99% perfect I would say

.

Zetr0 · 03 August 2007, 22:07

@Ironclaw

For some perfection is about not about obtaining anything, but the process of improvement.

Ironclaw · 03 August 2007, 22:11

Uhm... like coding stuff better, maybe requiring less cpu power in the future thanks to the findings of this device?... if not, I don't understand what you said :P.

Zetr0 · 03 August 2007, 22:19

@Ironclaw,

not sure if reduction of cpu would really a benefit, after all a500 emulation is quite tight. i feel at this point it would be more about stability as well as offering some of the lesser and unknown features for the emulator to exploit.

maybe in a small way there it is possible to reduce a fractional computational overhead, but with WinUAE being what it is.... its all about the improved perfomance me thinks...

the thing is, the more thats known, the closer we get ( i say we, I mean Toni and others way more technical than I *this does include the milkman btw lol* )to a better and more complete knowledge of the interaction of the A500. and hence...

(small fan faire) badaba badaaaaa!

A500 on a chip

now that would be something! (yes i know about the minimig its that sort of thing really just better performance over all) I would love to see how the minimig runs demos. that would be awsome.

anyway i am digressing away from toni's topic. sorry about that...

Ironclaw · 03 August 2007, 22:21

Oki, ZetrO... I knew that...... anyway.......don't get me wrong or anything... but I like my new cd display case.

Retro-Nerd · 03 August 2007, 22:23

Your Logicport Analyzer looks very important, Tony. Should be good for anything, i assume.

whitegiant89 · 06 August 2007, 01:15

Nice toy you got there Toni

Toni Wilen · 06 August 2007, 16:54

Blitter linedraw cycle "secret" found (more later..)

Same line draw (1,0) to (30,20)

With singledot: BLTCON1 SING-bit set
Without singledot: BLTCON1 SING-bit cleared (only one pixel/horizontal line, used when area needs to be filled)

line 1: vsync
line 2: hsync
line 3: chip ram dma access
line 4: chip ram read/write access

As the diagram shows, only drawn pixels are written back (bus is free for other uses when no pixel drawn) I thought blitter always writes data back, even if there is no pixel drawn..

I think this explains problems with demos with vector objects because WinUAE's linedraw uses too many cycles depending on line type.. (testing soon)

killergorilla · 06 August 2007, 17:48

I haven't got a fecking clue what the hell you are on about but if it helps WinUAE achieve better A500 compatibility it sounds awesome.

Keep up the confusing/good work

musashi5150 · 06 August 2007, 19:47

That's very interesting Toni. Like you I assumed the Blitter always wrote back what it read in through a source channel - even if the data was unchanged.

Looks like it was quite a clever little tike

dlfrsilver · 08 August 2007, 01:28

Would did system works on a 1200 too ?

Since Commodore never gave anything about hardware info, would be excellent ^^ !

Toni Wilen · 08 August 2007, 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

Would did system works on a 1200 too ?

Since Commodore never gave anything about hardware info, would be excellent ^^ !

Of course it is possible but surface mount chips suck.

But the question is: why? AGA is basically hacked ECS, afaik there is no big secrets. Chip memory bandwith was increased but only for bitplanes and sprites. Copper, blitter, audio etc.. haven't been changed, horizontal scanline cycle diagram should be exact same (except when using 2x/4x bandwidth display modes but there is nothing special there either)

Problem with AGA emulation is not unknown chipset features but CPU (this is becoming really popular faq..)

Zetr0 · 08 August 2007, 13:18

@Toni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

.... (this is becoming really popular faq..)

I blame you for posting cool pics and discovering stuff

viddi · 08 August 2007, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Your Logicport Analyzer looks very important, Tony. Should be good for anything, i assume.

Yo!

Thanks Toni. The real C= man!

Hungry Horace · 08 August 2007, 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironclaw

Can the a500 emulation really be any better?

. Seems perfect to me already

. .

somewhat naive comments from a self-proclaimed "genius"

Toni: your work is hardcore, and we all appriciate it!

03 August 2007, 21:12	#1
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	Logic analyzer: Was Better (perhaps) A500 compatibility More information later Attached Thumbnails

06 August 2007, 16:54	#13
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	Blitter linedraw cycle "secret" found (more later..) Same line draw (1,0) to (30,20) With singledot: BLTCON1 SING-bit set Without singledot: BLTCON1 SING-bit cleared (only one pixel/horizontal line, used when area needs to be filled) line 1: vsync line 2: hsync line 3: chip ram dma access line 4: chip ram read/write access As the diagram shows, only drawn pixels are written back (bus is free for other uses when no pixel drawn) I thought blitter always writes data back, even if there is no pixel drawn.. I think this explains problems with demos with vector objects because WinUAE's linedraw uses too many cycles depending on line type.. (testing soon) Attached Thumbnails

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03 August 2007, 21:17	#2
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh

03 August 2007, 21:23	#3
DamienD Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London / Sydney Age: 47 Posts: 20,420	Nice one Toni

03 August 2007, 21:46	#4
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	that does what exactly?

03 August 2007, 22:00	#5
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@bippym The WinUAE master, is attempting to probe the far reaches of the known and unknown universe that is the A500. Armed with what seems a nice usb reporting logic probe / analyser may lead the intrepid emu-guru to greater knowledge upon how the undocumented features of the A500 work. I am hoping, that Toni's endevor provides fruitfull, and bares fruit in the form of improved emulation of a500 features *pssst.... it looks to me like Toni is investigating something to do with the video timing perhaps.... but i could be wrong (and most likely am its been way to long since i use an a500 let alone a logic analyser / probe thingy)

03 August 2007, 22:01	#6
Ironclaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: ... Age: 45 Posts: 3,313	Can the a500 emulation really be any better? . Seems perfect to me already . Well, remember some stuff now.. ok 99% perfect I would say .

03 August 2007, 22:07	#7
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Ironclaw For some perfection is about not about obtaining anything, but the process of improvement.

03 August 2007, 22:11	#8
Ironclaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: ... Age: 45 Posts: 3,313	Uhm... like coding stuff better, maybe requiring less cpu power in the future thanks to the findings of this device?... if not, I don't understand what you said :P.

03 August 2007, 22:19	#9
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Ironclaw, not sure if reduction of cpu would really a benefit, after all a500 emulation is quite tight. i feel at this point it would be more about stability as well as offering some of the lesser and unknown features for the emulator to exploit. maybe in a small way there it is possible to reduce a fractional computational overhead, but with WinUAE being what it is.... its all about the improved perfomance me thinks... the thing is, the more thats known, the closer we get ( i say we, I mean Toni and others way more technical than I this does include the milkman btw lol )to a better and more complete knowledge of the interaction of the A500. and hence... (small fan faire) badaba badaaaaa! A500 on a chip now that would be something! (yes i know about the minimig its that sort of thing really just better performance over all) I would love to see how the minimig runs demos. that would be awsome. anyway i am digressing away from toni's topic. sorry about that...

03 August 2007, 22:21	#10
Ironclaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: ... Age: 45 Posts: 3,313	Oki, ZetrO... I knew that...... anyway.......don't get me wrong or anything... but I like my new cd display case.

03 August 2007, 22:23	#11
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	Your Logicport Analyzer looks very important, Tony. Should be good for anything, i assume.

06 August 2007, 01:15	#12
whitegiant89 Lone CBM user Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Atherton / Australia Age: 52 Posts: 148	Nice toy you got there Toni

06 August 2007, 17:48	#14
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	I haven't got a fecking clue what the hell you are on about but if it helps WinUAE achieve better A500 compatibility it sounds awesome. Keep up the confusing/good work

06 August 2007, 19:47	#15
musashi5150 move.w #$4489,$dff07e Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 42 Posts: 2,351	That's very interesting Toni. Like you I assumed the Blitter always wrote back what it read in through a source channel - even if the data was unchanged. Looks like it was quite a clever little tike

08 August 2007, 01:28	#16
dlfrsilver CaptainM68K-SPS France Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melun nearby Paris/France Age: 46 Posts: 10,412	Would did system works on a 1200 too ? Since Commodore never gave anything about hardware info, would be excellent ^^ !

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