68080/68060 discussion, comparisons etc

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

Chucky not only FPGA-Expert and processor designer but also OS expert? Wow

And Chucky... we still wait for proofs for your accusations that 080 illegally copied and used TG68 code.

I have never EVER told I am an fpga expert.. and never will say I am.

and I linked to a thread about the theory of it being a ripoff. and I told that that for me sounds pretty damn accurate.. will not link to it again

but show proof of me telling that I am a FPGA expert..

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by UberFreak

Any FPGA re-implementation of a compatible Motorolla CPU will be a "made up thing" by this logic, unless the FPGA code comes from Freescale (which will probably never ever happen).

Personally I see no advantage in 1:1 68060 re-implementation.
FPGA gives the opportunity to improve the design and achieve better speed per clock. Why not take advantage if it?

I want a 1:1 060 as preservation I am by no way interested of any kind of improvents.. as I do not want a "modern platorm" I have that. my Ryzen PC..

[OlafSch]

@chucky

As I wrote it is not and never was the intention of the vampire project to just preserve the old software. Then of course vampire was not and is not your choice. You are certainly not the only one thinking like that. Others think different and like the vampire for what it is. I see no problem there and no need for all the fighting. But for that you need no 68060 either, there is hardly any old amiga software needing something like 68060. Perhaps some raytracers and some 3D ego shooter...

[Lord Aga]

Originally Posted by Chucky

my guess of the lack of interest of gunnars offer is that there is not much of a interest of a "080" or the fact that you base ALL your work in a one-man-project and that is the worst thing you ever can do. doing a 68k core is a massive task to do, no doubt about it. but doing a card around it is also a quite big task. and what if suddenly the main thing of your work is suddenly unsupported (a bus hits him. covid, accident. or just thinking "fck this" ect etc) then you can just throw all your work in the bin..

So you're saying that you wouldn't support / engage a project that depends on a single person, and can potentially fizz out on a whim of that single person?

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by manossg

I like to think that there are 2-3 "loud" people here on both camps, but they do not account for a large majority of opinions that seem level-headed and matter-of-factly.

the reason this was forked out from another discussion is a typical Vampire-religious person saying "skip 060 we have 080" and no understanding whatsoever that not everyone like the religion of 080.

htere are some things that are surtain. taxes, vegans will tell everyone they are a vegan, religious people try to push their crap into peoples throut. and same with vampirepeople ush it hard into people..

[TuKo]

lol

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Chucky

the reason this was forked out from another discussion is a typical Vampire-religious person saying "skip 060 we have 080" and no understanding whatsoever that not everyone like the religion of 080.

htere are some things that are surtain. taxes, vegans will tell everyone they are a vegan, religious people try to push their crap into peoples throut. and same with vampirepeople ush it hard into people..

your fight against 080 also looks like religion

[Chucky]

nah. if people stop pushing their damn 080 into 060 threads and 080 as the big saviour of all.. it isn't..

just accept. I am far away from the only person wanting have a 060 and NOT that 080 rubbish.. but I DO agree with the vampirepepople: FPGA is the way to go.. it is just what you feed the FPGA with.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Chucky

nah. if people stop pushing their damn 080 into 060 threads and 080 as the big saviour of all.. it isn't..

just accept. I am far away from the only person wanting have a 060 and NOT that 080 rubbish.. but I DO agree with the vampirepepople: FPGA is the way to go.. it is just what you feed the FPGA with.

I still do not understand what you need 060 for if preservation of old software is your main interest. Idea behind 080 always was to create a modernized 68k processor and not creating a 100% compatible reimplementation of 68060. It might be that this is not your interest but it is how it is. Perhaps some people will do such a FPGA implementation some day but not very propable at the moment because you need very skilled and experienced people to do that who are willing to invest lots of time in it.

[Chucky]

not preservaton of software. the hardware. the platform! thats why I need the 060. it was the best we had back in the times. and THAT is what I want to preserve.

same as demosceners do not code for the 080. why? they want to do what was possible on the old machine. if they would do AMMX etc, why not simply skip that step and do a shader instead?


so preservation for me: keep the platform as it was..
if this was in the end of the 90s. then I would love this.
Actually I bought an Vampire as I was interested of it. but then noticed how it needed patching of kickstart to work. how technically incompatible it was. I started to loose interest. then they started with the cloning BS.. demanding people to register cards, making screen B/W if not.. then I lost it even more.

then the promises of AGA and FPU was silently removed. promises was simply put as "never happend" people asking for FPU was kicked out from the forum. "nooone wanted it"

yeahand the rest is history..

(and yeah as Gunnar now spreads info that I also clones the boards. all that shit was for sure a plain lie nothing else!.. as WHY the F.. would I clone a board I will not support.. yeah. still he claims that on discord... so all other accusations is most likly bullshit aswell)

(yeah and soon they will call my employer aswell maybe? they have called 2 other employers already... as that is how this kult works! critics needs to be silenced... )

or yeah they stopped with that and go to "SWATting" instead

[OlafSch]

@Chucky

They called your employers?

I cannot judge what happened behind the scenes and who is right or wrong. Propably (like always) escalation happened from both sides... From my point of view I would prefer live and let live. And finally it is hobby for most of us. There is too much fighting in the community for my taste. Regarding AGA and FPU removed, indeed it was propably not enough communicated that not every card will get all features because of limited size of FPGA. The communication changed since that and now it is obvious what people can expect and what not.

And yes vampire is not for everyone. People have bigboxes with lots of cards so for some a cheap accellerator implementing something like 68060 100% would be of interest. But it is not very propable that this will ever happen.

BTW you really do not understand what Aros 68k is.

[Chucky]

no they have called 2 other critics employers.. they spread lies and then call apparenlty

and they started with the lies onme.

[Chucky]

I know what AROS is. AROS is a opensourced AmigaOS API Compatible solution. available for x86, 68k and I also think the ARM?

Start WinUAE without a kickstart rom and it will try to boot AROS instead.

[AMike]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Do you compared binary files output from 68060 and 68080? If i remember right 68080 for A1200 has only 64 bit precision, like all (?) UAE results for jubimark. Then output file is perhaps different, even if this is not visible. FPU 80 bit for UAE works slower.

Today we had nice weather so I'm a bit late with results.

Scope of the test

• Three different Amiga: 4000PPC/060/66 OS3.9, A1260/60 OS3.9.4, V1200 2.13 x13 OS3.9.4 The 060 are all Rev.6
• Lightwave 3.5 and the picture from Jubibench saved as Ham8 Anim
• The Anim was calculated twice per system for crosscheck.
• Then the files were compared with diff under Linux.

Result:
The files within a system are identical - for example the two A1200 files are identical according to diff.If you compare the systems with each other, they all differ from each other. The file size itself is also different for all three versions - but the two A1200s are close together. Optically I found no difference between the three anims.

The biggest difference is in the render times:

• A1260/60 1:46:56 (6616 seconds)
• A4060/66 1:29:34 (5374 seconds)
• V1200/x12: 0:46:33 (2793 seconds)

In the link you find all six anim files for crosscheck. I have also screenshots of the render times if desired.https://workupload.com/file/j4eZLFEyzyC
I don't know where the differences come from, maybe it is because of the different clock frequencies, or that 80bit still leads to deviations.

[AMike]

Originally Posted by trixster

If I were a vampire owner, or prospective vampire owner, I’d want to know when all the new software and games are going to arrive to make use of ammx and 080 power?

There are a few applications like Riva, Diablo, Jpeg datatype ect. But new "080" software is not really necessary at all, because there is existing software that profits strongly from vampires. Example Ibrowse with SSL encryption - on my A4060/66 with warpdatatypes it is much slower than with the V1200. With the V1200 you have the impression you are surfing without encryption.

[Chucky]

hmm 2 A1200 files indentical. still different size?

[AMike]

Originally Posted by Chucky

hmm 2 A1200 files indentical. still different size?

My English is not the best - maybe it's a language barrier.
The two files of the A1200 are identical to each other - the same applies to the V1200 and A4000 files.(all compared whitin the system) BUT the files of the three systems are different from each other. Was that clear?

[Chucky]

ahh ok now.. you have 3 systems. doing 2 renders each.
each systemproduces 2 identical files.

but each system all produces different files between the systems...

first of all that is interesting.. does it happen that your 060 system have different rev of the cpus?
the "080" would for sure produce a different file due to its FPU. you will not really notice it that much visually no.. but that is also a good reason why it faster.. doing a "float" instead of a double is faster, it is less accurate. but I guess you will need to concentrate real hard to see the small differences.

but that the different 060 gives different outputs is weird I think unless there is rev issues between the cpus?

Ineed to get my lazy ass to find a iff viewer for wintendo

[AMike]

Originally Posted by Chucky

ahh ok now.. you have 3 systems. doing 2 renders each.
each systemproduces 2 identical files.

but each system all produces different files between the systems...

Yeap - exactly that.

I use only Rev.6 CPUs - but the clockrate is different (60 & 66 Mhz).
You can view the files with Dopus.

[Chucky]

clockrate should not do it and if it would be clockissues, the 2 files would be different.

same versions of ieee libs etc??
hmm have no clue why they differ..