Legality of CoffinOS and Vampire Team

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by spudje

I agree with BippyM. However Utri007, however illegal Coffin is, apollo team is not selling it. The V4SA would have costed just the same with or without Coffin at A34. There is a dubious independent person selling ready made CF cards with Coffin. Some people on the Apollo forum are asking the Apollo guys to at least ban him. And here, just as with distancing from Coffin, they don't do that. And I fully agree that is harmful, most of all for their own credibility.

So going by your logic spudje; shall I upload "Amiga OS 3.9" and provide links for all to download???

It's ok, I don't want any money for it... I'm just happy to spread for free

That's exactly what the Apollo team are doing; they have torrent links to the "CoffinOS" distro on their website / forum for fuck sake!!!

...and yet they say they don't like / support CoffinOS.

Give me a break!!! Do they think people are stupid or something?

[spudje]

No, that's not what I'm saying. if you read my posts, you've seen that I also very much think they should distance from Coffin (as "officially" it's not theirs, but we all know better), or try to clear up the rights and make it legal. I was pointing out utri007, who was claiming Apollo is selling Coffin, that that claim is not true.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

You know as well as I do that no one gives a shit about anyone pirating Windows 98.

That still doesn't make it legal. It is *really* that simple. If you want to distribute software, you need to have a copyright for doing so.

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Who cares. It's 20 years old.

I care. Isn't that enough?

Originally Posted by Hewitson

They aren't selling the software.

Yes, of course they are selling it, along with the hardware. Apparently, people prefer to buy the hardware with this software, as otherwise this illegal bundle wouldn't exist in first place.


If Apollo would be a legal business, they had to pay royalties to distribute copyrighted software. Or distribute it without software, or with a software with a more permissive license. All these options exist, still - it apparently somebody decided that it would be just easier to pirate software, hack up the kickstart and distribute that as a bundle.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by spudje

or try to clear up the rights and make it legal.

...which is exactly what I said to the main Apollo team spokesman, AKA "grond", much earlier in this thread before it all kicked off: << click >>

...but of course he avoided answering the accusations made by amiga-news.de / explaining the situation; and still does.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by BippyM

Comparing Apollo Team to EAB is like comparing an Apple to an Orange. Both are fruit, but they are very different!

I afraid that is not the case. It does not matter for which purpose you distribute software. If you don't have license, you don't have a license. As simple as that.

[UberFreak]

Copyrights should be protected and enforced by their holders, which, for example, Nintendo does all the time.
If a copyrighted work is not actively protected for a long time (which is the case with OS3.9), I will happily download it without feeling any remorse.

Regarding CoffinOS, it is not sold, but freely distributed via torrent.

[BippyM]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I afraid that is not the case. It does not matter for which purpose you distribute software. If you don't have license, you don't have a license. As simple as that.

Which is why we are both fruit.. Giving away something considered as "abandoned" is not great, but is rife on the internet, selling that same stuff for profit... Well!!

[spudje]

So Damien, we don't disagree that much after all. However I think it's a bit unfair to condemn a whole team, that mostly has done quite some good work (Vampire, Revive 68k development of AROS, and one may argue that they contributed to the renewed interest to classic Amiga and mostly classic Amiga OS, seeing the "activity" from and between Hyperion & Cloanto).

Fully agree they should distance from Coffin (however cool a package it is). But I guess in the end if they don't it will bring them into trouble anyway.

I really really hope this Vampire Amikit will arrive soon and will be promoted by Apollo instead of Coffin.

[sean_sk]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Yes, of course they are selling it, along with the hardware. Apparently, people prefer to buy the hardware with this software, as otherwise this illegal bundle wouldn't exist in first place.

No they are NOT Thomas, get your facts straight.
The fact is that at one time at Amiga 34 they were giving away CoffinOS for free with the Vampire V4 Standalone. Since then this has not happened.

Where in the following link do you see that they are giving away CoffinOS with the V4SA?

http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm...&subpage=order

[BippyM]

Anyone wanting to know what is on the programs partition of the image please see a listing here.. Note this is not intuitive, and is not going to be an easy read.. Oh it extracts to 22mb

I'll get teh system partition tomorrow, tired tonight

[SquawkBox]

I assume distributing (untampered with) Windows software is legal, as long as one doesn't provide a CD key or a crack along with it. A few months back, full Windows images could be downloaded from an official MS site (modern.IE, don't google it, site has been shut down). These images (at first, these were time-bombed then they opted for fully functional versions) could be loaded into VMWare for web developers to test their site against various versions of Internet Explorer and / or Edge browsers.
Also, I assume pre-activated versions of Windows and Office could have been offered to MSDN partners and organizations. It was Ok with MS, as long as said computer it was to be installed upon was used strictly for testing and development purposes.

[lmimmfn]

And this is the reason the Amiga needs to die, everyone bickering over nonsense.
What a joke!!!!

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

And this is the reason the Amiga needs to die, everyone bickering over nonsense.
What a joke!!!!

On the contrary, not only is the bickering keeping it alive, it adds to the retro experience!

30 years ago everybody complained about the price of Amiga software, and swore they would buy rather than pirate if prices went down (to less than the cost of a blank disk). A few of us insisted on staying legal to support producers, but eventually even we had to admit that cracking down on piracy wouldn't save a dying industry. Turns out the large supply of pirate software was driving sales of the hardware!

A few years later Commodore was dead and everybody moved to PCs. So you would think that today all commercial Amiga software would be abandonware or given to the community because the platform is dead. But no! Even today some Amiga software is worth enough that people are still bickering over the legalities! Which proves that the Amiga should not die.

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Err, the CoffinOS installer is 32GB???

That's several times larger than a macOS or Windows 10 Installation Image. What a bloated piece of shit!

Yep, if all you wanted was the OS then it's the ultimate example of bloat. But even if you stripped off all the games etc. it would still be a bloated piece of shit, because it includes OS 3.9.

I don't really understand why anyone cares if 3.9 is being distributed as part of CoffinOS.

I don't care, but for different reasons than you might think. If anyone wants to spoil themselves with an SD card jam-packed with every piece of Amiga software ever produced then I say let them. This is just the modern equivalent of those hundreds of disks they used to have 30 years ago - far more than they could ever get full value out of and cheapening the experience.

As for 3.9, the official distribution is so onerous, and the OS itself so bloated and incompetently implemented it doesn't deserve any better. OTOH I don't mind if people are discouraged from using it, because it means fewer software titles will be produced that require it.

It's about time we stopped caring about the legalities of 20 year old software.

It would be nice to think we could, but we can't because that 20 year old software is still under copyright and (I presume) still being sold.

I feel no shame in saying that I downloaded a pirate copy of OS 3.9 to evaluate - then uninstalled it and went back to 3.1. If it had been worth buying I would have. Today I purchased Roadshow - because it is worth buying. They had the good sense to distribute a demo version so people could legally see whether it was worth buying before plonking their money down.

[AMike]

Originally Posted by DamienD

As for the article on amiga-news.de; it was written "04.Nov.2019".
l.

Then go to Amiga News and the other five people who care about that. I think they are happy to find another guy who is willing to cry about the topic. But dont forget to close the Zone and the EAB Server full of copies and stop taking donations from the community. I think that would help that anyone taken your comments more serious. You are not in the position to judge others about their attitude concerning copyrights.

[AMike]

Originally Posted by BippyM

The fact is, this image will only work with a vampire, and is supplied by the vampire team on their website.. Therefore, they are selling it!!

Hmm...I can't find a pricetag - but many torrentlinks. I have had serveral Vampires including SA V4 - it never comes with Coffin, nor did I payed money for that.

[Minuous]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

it would still be a bloated piece of shit, because it includes OS 3.9.

As for 3.9, the official distribution is so onerous, and the OS itself so bloated and incompetently implemented it doesn't deserve any better.

Incompetently implemented how? And as for bloat, it's about 10Mb or so without the extensive collection of WB backdrops and the optional internet software; that's hardly bloated.

OTOH I don't mind if people are discouraged from using it, because it means fewer software titles will be produced that require it.

So you seem to want everyone to restrict themselves to only using a crap 26 year old version of the OS, and force programmers to only target that version. You say "the Amiga should not die" but seem to be doing your best to kill it. As a user, why would I want to miss out on all the improvements made over the past 26 years? As a developer, why would I want my users to miss out on those improvements?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by sean_sk

No they are NOT Thomas, get your facts straight.

Apparently, some people accquired the hardware along with the software, and paid money for the product consisting of a bundle of hardware and software. That is "selling it".


However, no matter whether that was a "free service" or not: It remains illegal to begin with. You cannot legally distribute 3.9 components without a license. Even if the vampire would have been given away for free, it does not make a difference concerning the legal status of the affair.

Originally Posted by sean_sk

The fact is that at one time at Amiga 34 they were giving away CoffinOS for free with the Vampire V4 Standalone.

Yes, without having a license for doing so.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by AMike

Then go to Amiga News and the other five people who care about that. I think they are happy to find another guy who is willing to cry about the topic. But dont forget to close the Zone and the EAB Server full of copies and stop taking donations from the community. I think that would help that anyone taken your comments more serious. You are not in the position to judge others about their attitude concerning copyrights.

The "EAB File Server" has already been taken offline until further notice; so that we can go through and remove any WB files / KS ROMs that we weren't aware of.

Again, you show me exactly where "Amiga OS files / Kickstart ROMs and commercial programs / games still for sale" are on any EAB resource!!!

...and as BippyM rightly pointed out: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...2&postcount=96.

And as I said:

Originally Posted by DamienD

...but let's be honest, and I'm not saying it's ok... a few old KS ROMs is totally different to distributing the entire "Amiga OS 3.9" isn't it?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

That still doesn't make it legal. It is *really* that simple. If you want to distribute software, you need to have a copyright for doing so.




I care. Isn't that enough?





Yes, of course they are selling it, along with the hardware. Apparently, people prefer to buy the hardware with this software, as otherwise this illegal bundle wouldn't exist in first place.


If Apollo would be a legal business, they had to pay royalties to distribute copyrighted software. Or distribute it without software, or with a software with a more permissive license. All these options exist, still - it apparently somebody decided that it would be just easier to pirate software, hack up the kickstart and distribute that as a bundle.

officially AROS is the main system now. That includes RTG, not your beloved P96. Your constant moaning starts to nerve.

We know already how you love certain companies and want them to get paid but the constant repeating nerves already.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Well, it's the same team doing both so...


Exactly; and ALB42 has done just that.

BTW ALB42 has removed the vampire hardware detection

And now? One friend of you less?

The community behaves in parts silly