Ultimate Gloom - CD32 working or not?

[Velociraptor5]

HoL link: https://hol.abime.net/1799

Let's look, what we know about CD32 version. I'll be quoting HoL game entry, note "[4]"

"Despite containing an optimised CD32 version, the GLOOM 3 CD won't boot on a basic CD32 (due to the absence of the 'CD32.TM' trademark file). However, the game can be executed from a CLI/shell if you attach a keyboard to the CD32 and 'boot with no startup-sequence' from the early startup menu (hold down the red and blue buttons on a joypad OR both buttons on a mouse plugged into joy port 2)."

So, only one known CD version of this game is TOSEC version:
Ultimate Gloom (1997)(Guildhall Leisure Services)[!][Amiga-CD32]

I am not able to verify, if this version really doesn't contain "CD32.TM" file, but I think the main problem is, this game also doesn't contain any "S" folder and any "startup-sequence" inside. And due to this, there is no possibility, how to run the game from CLI/Shell through "Boot With No Startup-Sequence". I would say, no "startup-sequence" no possibility to use "Boot With No Startup-Sequence". The HoL procedure mentioned above doesn't work.


We have here 3 simple questions:

1) TOSEC version is just... some wrong dump

or

2) There exist two versions of this game, one version only for CD32 (now missing) and second version only for AmigaCD.

or

3) There are written total nonsenses in HoL under note [4]


Can anyone say, where I am wrong or where the truth is?

[Matt_H]

Bottom line: it's not a CD32 game and was never advertised as such. TOSEC, unsurprisingly, is wrong.

The CD32/Akiko features are likely carried over from the original Gloom which did have a CD32 version and/or were intended for CD32s with an SX-1, SX32, etc.

[Velociraptor5]

Originally Posted by Matt_H

Bottom line: it's not a CD32 game and was never advertised as such. TOSEC, unsurprisingly, is wrong.

The CD32/Akiko features are likely carried over from the original Gloom which did have a CD32 version and/or were intended for CD32s with an SX-1, SX32, etc.

So, you want to say:
a) Infos about CD32 in game manuals are totally wrong
(https://hol.abime.net/1799/manual)

b) Note [4] in HoL contains total nonsenses, probably due to "a)"

c) TOSEC dump is probably correct, there is only incorrect hardware flag [Amiga-CD32]

[Matt_H]

The manual contradicts itself regarding CD32 support. It initially makes no mention of CD32 compatibility, simply that it requires an AGA Amiga with a CD drive. An expanded CD32 happens to be such a machine and for those users there are Akiko routines. But this later line:

CD³² owners will be happy to hear that it WILL work on the CD³² although without an SX1 and extra hardware the game may seem slightly sluggish unless on low pixel rates in small screen.

is where I imagine the confusion is coming from. I suspect the explanation here is that the developer had a CD32 with an SX-1 but didn't thoroughly test the game on that config and just made assumptions about how the game would work without an SX-1. You have to remember, Ultimate Gloom was very hastily put together by a single person so it's not surprising that the documentation contains inconsistencies that would have been caught with more extensive internal review.

But the note in HOL is correct. You can run it on a CD32 by booting with no startup-sequence and starting the game manually from a shell after making the appropriate assigns. The same goes for any non-CD32 game that runs from CD requiring 2MB of RAM or less.

The TOSEC hardware flag is wrong. It's a plain ol' AmigaCD game.

[Velociraptor5]

So, It is not clear on 100% if the game is AmigaCD only, it is still about "maybe", "probably"... it's clear so on 90%, but it is so important...

Originally Posted by Matt_H

But the note in HOL is correct. You can run it on a CD32 by booting with no startup-sequence and starting the game manually from a shell after making the appropriate assigns. The same goes for any non-CD32 game that runs from CD requiring 2MB of RAM or less.

Have you ever test this game with "Boot With No Startup-Sequence"?
Just simply test it, use "Boot With No Startup-Sequence" and you'll see... nothing. CD32 jingle again, no Amiga DOS window...
In my opinion, it's nonsense and it doesn't work.
Before time, I tried to run manually a few games by "Boot With No Startup-Sequence" and it worked, although all the games contained "Startup-Sequence". But, I must to repeat, in this case it doesn't work.
Or, if I am wrong...
Give me correct procedure, how to run it by "Boot With No Startup-Sequence", if you still claim, the game is possible to run by "Boot With No Startup-Sequence"

[Matt_H]

You're right. I stand corrected. I can't get to an AmigaDOS shell from a stock CD32 config, although this may be an emulation issue. But the HOL note is valid if you can get to a shell, which may or may not be possible on a stock CD32.

Originally Posted by Matt_H

I suspect the explanation here is that the developer had a CD32 with an SX-1 but didn't thoroughly test the game on that config and just made assumptions about how the game would work without an SX-1.

I made the same erroneous assumption.

But my original point stands: this is a plain AmigaCD game. Edit to add: A "CD32 game" is one that you can pop into a CD32 and boot instantly. This one can be made to work on CD32 hardware, but it was never a CD32 game.

[Velociraptor5]

So, emulation problem... it would explain a lot... Although it is not also 100% certain...

But, the truth is (or should be), the most important sign, whether the game is made for CD32 or not, is that the game can boot on CD32 immediately, that means, the game contains working "startup-sequence".

Just note:
How you can be so sure, the HOL note is valid, have you read it elsewhere yet?

[AMIGASYSTEM]

@Velociraptor5

"Ultimate Gloom (1997)(Guildhall Leisure Services)[!][Amiga-CD32]"

This CD, is can never be a CD32 ISO, lacks the CD32.TM Bootloader, lacks libs, system files needed for a CD32 Game and lacks a startup-sequence suitable for booting a CD game.

That "Messy" ISO includes an installer and folders that don't all seem to me to be related to the same game version.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by AMIGASYSTEM

That "Messy" ISO includes an installer and folders that don't all seem to me to be related to the same game version.

"Game won't boot on a basic CD32, but you can attach a keyboard and execute the game from CLI/shell if you boot with no startup-sequence from the early startup menu (hold down both buttons on a mouse or the red and blue buttons on a joypad plugged into joy port 2). Confirmed on real CD32 hardware here and also A1200/030 with CDROM drive."

Just thought this is relevant here (I don't own a CD32).

From my point of view just because you can get it running on a CD32 doesn't mean you should mark it as 'CD32' on HOL, but I certainly won't die on that hill defending my opinion.

[Matt_H]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor5

So, emulation problem... it would explain a lot... Although it is not also 100% certain...

It's 100% certain that it's not a "CD32 game."

But, the truth is (or should be), the most important sign, whether the game is made for CD32 or not, is that the game can boot on CD32 immediately, that means, the game contains working "startup-sequence".

It contains none of those things. But, like I said, the game can be made to work on CD32 hardware given certain conditions, i.e., using the machine as an Amiga with a CD drive instead of a "CD32."

Just note:
How you can be so sure, the HOL note is valid, have you read it elsewhere yet?

It has nothing to do with the game itself. Any game that runs directly from CD and requires less than 2MB of RAM can be run on a CD32 with those instructions, with the caveat that one has to be able to get to an AmigaDOS shell, which may or may not be possible on a stock CD32. The same applies to regular Amigas with a CD drive, too. You just have to mount CD0: first.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Originally Posted by TCD

"Game won't boot on a basic CD32, but you can attach a keyboard and execute the game from CLI/shell if you boot with no startup-sequence from the early startup menu (hold down both buttons on a mouse or the red and blue buttons on a joypad plugged into joy port 2). Confirmed on real CD32 hardware here and also A1200/030 with CDROM drive."

Just thought this is relevant here (I don't own a CD32).

From my point of view just because you can get it running on a CD32 doesn't mean you should mark it as 'CD32' on HOL, but I certainly won't die on that hill defending my opinion.

Yes everything can be done, you can even make it into a CD32 Game, many games can be runida CD32 directly from CD, or from Hardisk if you have SX32 (I have this expansion).

I attach an old Video of mine showing one of the many Compilations in Italian, which I created many years ago for my children.

I did not create the GUI, I don't know who the author was, I emptied out the whole ISO and put in my own games that my children liked, the animations were made by my children, here is the video:


[ Show youtube player ]

[Velociraptor5]

Originally Posted by Matt_H

You're right. I stand corrected. I can't get to an AmigaDOS shell from a stock CD32 config, although this may be an emulation issue.

Originally Posted by Velociraptor5

So, emulation problem... it would explain a lot... Although it is not also 100% certain...

Originally Posted by Matt_H

It's 100% certain that it's not a "CD32 game."

Only note, you didn't understand me... I know, it's not CD32 game. I only wanted to say, there is not 100% certainty, it's emulation problem (impossibility to get to AmigaDOS with "Boot With No Startup-Sequence").
But otherwise thanks for the info.

[Velociraptor5]

Originally Posted by TCD

From my point of view just because you can get it running on a CD32 doesn't mean you should mark it as 'CD32' on HOL, but I certainly won't die on that hill defending my opinion.

Yesterday, I wanted to suggest it to you, to cancel CD32 harware flag at this game (Ultimate Gloom). I would do it without fear, because otherwise you would have to add this flag to other "20" CD game entries, that are possible to run with this weird non-standard procedure on CD32.
This is not really CD32 game.

[Toni Wilen]

CD32 (and CDTV) only boots CDs that have "trademark" file (at least when using official ROMs). It is sort of copy protection. File contains Commodore license strings.

[Retro1234]

Seems a strange choice not to include the trademark file, it would reach a larger audience. Did commodore charge for the TM file?

I guess you could boot another Disc without Startup-sequence and then swap discs and use a keyboard to start it.

Had great fun playing Gloom on the CD32 in two player mode. The shoulder buttons really help

[Matt_H]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor5

Only note, you didn't understand me... I know, it's not CD32 game. I only wanted to say, there is not 100% certainty, it's emulation problem (impossibility to get to AmigaDOS with "Boot With No Startup-Sequence").
But otherwise thanks for the info.

Got it. My Windows partition is misbehaving right now, but I will experiment more with WinUAE when I get it working.

[Matt_H]

Originally Posted by Retro1234

Seems a strange choice not to include the trademark file, it would reach a larger audience. Did commodore charge for the TM file?

They did at one point, but by the time Ultimate Gloom came out the .tm files were widely available on the Dev CDs. So the fact that the game isn't bootable is either a deliberate choice or an oversight.

[DrBong]

@Velociraptor5, Matt, AmigaSystem, TCD
Did you guys really read my HOL notes closely??!!

I did update them recently to make it as clear as possible why Ultimate Gloom was intended by the devs to work on the CD32, despite only indicating in the manual that they had (clumsily) done so. Pay extra special attention to points [4] and [5] in the notes. Hopefully you'll see that the devs went to more effort to tailor the game to the CD32 than most of the big Amiga publishers did back in the CD32 heyday, when lotsa OCS/ECS disk versions were released with little or no enhancement as CD32 shovelware ().

[nittamituaki]

In recent years Google hasn't indexed each personal website, so some people don't know my documentation.
Five reasons why this game isn't for CD32 and is just a game for Amiga CD:
https://nitta.sakuraweb.com/amiga-fp...loom.main.html
Stop the habit of believing what's in the Readme file without testing it on real hardware.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by DrBong

@Velociraptor5, Matt, AmigaSystem, TCD
Did you guys really read my HOL notes closely??!!

I did. You indeed edited them quite often to make your point. That doesn't mean that you could also argue that even if the game was intended for CD32 it wasn't released as such for whatever reason. Like I stated above I personally don't care if the CD32 'flag' is on the entry or not, but I do understand why people are against it.