OCS ECS selection?

PiCiJi · 16 September 2003, 23:21

Are there any games, which uses the additions of an ECS System? I am afraid not. or???

How is decided, if a game is OCS or ECS in HOL?

RCK · 16 September 2003, 23:26

we have made a random function to choose for us

fiath · 17 September 2003, 00:42

LOL!

PiCiJi · 17 September 2003, 14:08

:hoo wow

Mr Creosote · 17 September 2003, 17:29

I could be wrong, but isn't Rise of the Robots (non-AGA) ECS only? That'd make at least one game

Dizzy · 17 September 2003, 17:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Creosote
I could be wrong, but isn't Rise of the Robots (non-AGA) ECS only? That'd make at least one game

No, as someone said before... Rise of the ... is not a game.

Amiga1992 · 17 September 2003, 17:45

It needs 1MB of Chip RAm, so an A500 with 512/512 wouldn't be able to run it.

Overdoc · 18 September 2003, 00:03

Yes, Rise of the Robots is one of these very few games which need 1MB chipram and therefore only runs on bigger Amigas, or on A-500+/A600 or modifyed A-500 machines.

But it is not a real ECS game, because it doesn't use the ECS upgrades like higher resolution modes and such. It runs without problems on my A-500 with 1MB chipram, but old 1MB Agnus and old OCS Denise.

I still have to see a single game which really is an ECS game and not a simple OCS one. In my opinion every normal A-500 game ( also if it needs 512k chip and additional 512k trapdoor memory ) should be OCS games, and only games which need more than the 512k chip/512k fastram combination should be marked as ECS games, even if they are not real ECS like Rise of Robots.

Anyway, there are very few game which really need 1MB chipram. I think besides ROTR there is just Space Ace II, some PD games and maybe Hare Raising Havoc ( not really sure on this one )

So you see, 99% of all ECS games are OCS instead....

DrBong · 18 September 2003, 00:05

Generally, we've used the year of release to assign whether a game was designed for Amigas with OCS or ECS at the time of release.

The ECS chipset was released in late 1989, but Amigas with the ECS chipset weren't released until 1990. Therefore, non-AGA games released before 1990 have been classified as OCS and those from 1990 onwards have been designated as ECS.

Keep in mind that the category was not intended to be an indicator of compatibility (we simply don't have time to test games on all the various non-AGA Amigas with different chipsets), but rather a general guide as to what chipset the game was guaranteed to work with at the time of release. It's by no means a perfect way of coding this category, but it's the best trade-off we could come up with.

Hope the answer I've given isn't too confusing.

Amiga1992 · 18 September 2003, 00:42

What about games that use the HalfBrite mode? Isn't that an ECS mode or am I completely wrong? (probably

)

Chuckles · 18 September 2003, 05:00

Extra HalfBrite mode is an older mode that was available on OCS machines. I believe it was available in all Amigas from the A500 on, and was even available on the A1000 if you had a late enough version of the Agnus chip. One of the early demos that used it was widely used to check A1000's to see if they supported that mode. I'm happy to say that my A1000 does.

fiath · 18 September 2003, 09:51

True. Abandoned Places 2 uses the half bright mode, and that is an OCS game.

This information may be useful to HOL: we test every game to see if it is OCS/ECS/AGA and I believe this information in our games database is all correct.

http://www.caps-project.org

As you can see the *vast* majority of these games are OCS. The ones listed as ECS *really are* ECS. Those listed as being more that one chipset is because they have special features for better chipsets, e.g. Arcade Pool.

Of course, that is only 800 games so far...

Personally (and this is just my own thoughts) I think HOL should leave the chipset section blank if it is information that may be wrong from a compatability point of view, determing chipset by year of game release is a bit crazy IMHO

.

You are of course welcome to populate this information from our research, I'll even generate the queries for you if you want to do it this way.

I think HOL is fantastic - and the chipset thing is just a small thing - but as it got brought up....

PiCiJi · 18 September 2003, 22:46

can you give an example?

for example historyline is ECS marked in C.A.P.S

I know it works with an old OCS Amiga 500.

What the advantages with A500+ (ECS) or higher?

Mr Creosote · 19 September 2003, 10:43

Come on, people! This is actually one of the oldest discussions about HOL, it was already brought up in the IRC christmas meeting when it first opened its doors

fiath · 19 September 2003, 13:02

Does that mean it can't change?

fiath · 19 September 2003, 13:10

Quote:

Originally posted by PiCiJi
can you give an example?

for example historyline is ECS marked in C.A.P.S

I know it works with an old OCS Amiga 500.

Perhaps there are different versions then. I am pretty sure that info is correct since all the games were tested. I'll check on it...

Quote:

What the advantages with A500+ (ECS) or higher?

Not much.

The ECS is mostly the same as OCS, with a few extra video modes. As ECS machines came with 1Mb chip ram IIRC, this is also termed as an ECS feature in that you need an "ECS machine".

Dizzy · 19 September 2003, 13:15

Quote:

Originally posted by fiath
Not much. The ECS is mostly the same as OCS, with a few extra video modes. As ECS machines came with 1Mb chip ram IIRC, this is also termed as an ECS feature in that you need an "ECS machine".

Not all the last Amiga 500 had ECS but only 512 Kb...

fiath · 19 September 2003, 13:19

*That* is interesting! I have never even seen an A500+.

Okay, I guess it was that ECS *allowed* for 1Mb chip then and OCS did not?

Chuckles · 19 September 2003, 13:56

You didn't necessarily have to have the full ECS chipset in order to have 1 MB of chip ram. With just the newer Agnus chip, you could get 1 MB of chip ram with a mod to the motherboard. My old A500 has 1 MB chip ram, but has none of the other ECS features.

fiath · 19 September 2003, 17:15

Okay, a couple of things I got from a "reliable source"

It looks like the A500+ *did* come with 1Mb chip ram. I only assumed it did, but now I am sure.

Here is a fairly correct hardware site:
http://www.amiga-hardware.com/a500+.html

Apparently, the point of the sale of the A500+ was the "huge" amount of chipram allowing bigger dpaint pictures, better games and things like that

Also dig out your mags, and look for Silica etc adverts and a500+ packs.

About your old non-plus A500 having 1Mb chip ram - are you sure? I don't mean to question you or Overdoc. Could it have been hardware hacked or something? Or perhaps it was originally a plus and downgraded?

I say this because of the following...

"ECS is a chipset type, that is *mandatory* to address upto 2mb of chipram. The reason is simple: OCS chipset is missing 2 address lines. 2 lines can have of course 4 values from 00...11, 4*512 = 2mb addrerssable chip ram area.

Apart from the bonus 2 lines (and obviously gating the internal logic to use it, unless it was already in just never used) other changes are mainly video mode related (e.g. pal/ntsc switch), programmable frequencies, and a useless new video mode that was supposed to be professional. "

Now I am really confused!

16 September 2003, 23:21	#1
PiCiJi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: germany Age: 45 Posts: 402	OCS ECS selection? Are there any games, which uses the additions of an ECS System? I am afraid not. or??? How is decided, if a game is OCS or ECS in HOL?

18 September 2003, 00:05	#9
DrBong HOL / AMR Team Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 2,632	Generally, we've used the year of release to assign whether a game was designed for Amigas with OCS or ECS at the time of release. The ECS chipset was released in late 1989, but Amigas with the ECS chipset weren't released until 1990. Therefore, non-AGA games released before 1990 have been classified as OCS and those from 1990 onwards have been designated as ECS. Keep in mind that the category was not intended to be an indicator of compatibility (we simply don't have time to test games on all the various non-AGA Amigas with different chipsets), but rather a general guide as to what chipset the game was guaranteed to work with at the time of release. It's by no means a perfect way of coding this category, but it's the best trade-off we could come up with. Hope the answer I've given isn't too confusing. Last edited by DrBong; 16 May 2017 at 22:20. Reason: Fixed typo!

18 September 2003, 09:51	#12
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	True. Abandoned Places 2 uses the half bright mode, and that is an OCS game. This information may be useful to HOL: we test every game to see if it is OCS/ECS/AGA and I believe this information in our games database is all correct. http://www.caps-project.org As you can see the vast majority of these games are OCS. The ones listed as ECS really are ECS. Those listed as being more that one chipset is because they have special features for better chipsets, e.g. Arcade Pool. Of course, that is only 800 games so far... Personally (and this is just my own thoughts) I think HOL should leave the chipset section blank if it is information that may be wrong from a compatability point of view, determing chipset by year of game release is a bit crazy IMHO . You are of course welcome to populate this information from our research, I'll even generate the queries for you if you want to do it this way. I think HOL is fantastic - and the chipset thing is just a small thing - but as it got brought up.... Last edited by fiath; 18 September 2003 at 09:58.

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16 September 2003, 23:26	#2
RCK Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Paris / France Age: 45 Posts: 3,084	we have made a random function to choose for us

17 September 2003, 00:42	#3
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	LOL!

17 September 2003, 14:08	#4
PiCiJi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: germany Age: 45 Posts: 402	:hoo wow

17 September 2003, 17:29	#5
Mr Creosote Evil Mastermind Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Home Posts: 740	I could be wrong, but isn't Rise of the Robots (non-AGA) ECS only? That'd make at least one game

17 September 2003, 17:45	#7
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,644	It needs 1MB of Chip RAm, so an A500 with 512/512 wouldn't be able to run it.

18 September 2003, 00:03	#8
Overdoc Commodore Collector Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austria Age: 53 Posts: 944	Yes, Rise of the Robots is one of these very few games which need 1MB chipram and therefore only runs on bigger Amigas, or on A-500+/A600 or modifyed A-500 machines. But it is not a real ECS game, because it doesn't use the ECS upgrades like higher resolution modes and such. It runs without problems on my A-500 with 1MB chipram, but old 1MB Agnus and old OCS Denise. I still have to see a single game which really is an ECS game and not a simple OCS one. In my opinion every normal A-500 game ( also if it needs 512k chip and additional 512k trapdoor memory ) should be OCS games, and only games which need more than the 512k chip/512k fastram combination should be marked as ECS games, even if they are not real ECS like Rise of Robots. Anyway, there are very few game which really need 1MB chipram. I think besides ROTR there is just Space Ace II, some PD games and maybe Hare Raising Havoc ( not really sure on this one ) So you see, 99% of all ECS games are OCS instead....

18 September 2003, 00:42	#10
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,644	What about games that use the HalfBrite mode? Isn't that an ECS mode or am I completely wrong? (probably )

18 September 2003, 05:00	#11
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 68 Posts: 685	Extra HalfBrite mode is an older mode that was available on OCS machines. I believe it was available in all Amigas from the A500 on, and was even available on the A1000 if you had a late enough version of the Agnus chip. One of the early demos that used it was widely used to check A1000's to see if they supported that mode. I'm happy to say that my A1000 does.

18 September 2003, 22:46	#13
PiCiJi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: germany Age: 45 Posts: 402	can you give an example? for example historyline is ECS marked in C.A.P.S I know it works with an old OCS Amiga 500. What the advantages with A500+ (ECS) or higher?

19 September 2003, 10:43	#14
Mr Creosote Evil Mastermind Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Home Posts: 740	Come on, people! This is actually one of the oldest discussions about HOL, it was already brought up in the IRC christmas meeting when it first opened its doors

19 September 2003, 13:02	#15
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Does that mean it can't change?

19 September 2003, 13:19	#18
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	That is interesting! I have never even seen an A500+. Okay, I guess it was that ECS allowed for 1Mb chip then and OCS did not?

19 September 2003, 13:56	#19
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 68 Posts: 685	You didn't necessarily have to have the full ECS chipset in order to have 1 MB of chip ram. With just the newer Agnus chip, you could get 1 MB of chip ram with a mod to the motherboard. My old A500 has 1 MB chip ram, but has none of the other ECS features.

19 September 2003, 17:15	#20
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Okay, a couple of things I got from a "reliable source" It looks like the A500+ did come with 1Mb chip ram. I only assumed it did, but now I am sure. Here is a fairly correct hardware site: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/a500+.html Apparently, the point of the sale of the A500+ was the "huge" amount of chipram allowing bigger dpaint pictures, better games and things like that Also dig out your mags, and look for Silica etc adverts and a500+ packs. About your old non-plus A500 having 1Mb chip ram - are you sure? I don't mean to question you or Overdoc. Could it have been hardware hacked or something? Or perhaps it was originally a plus and downgraded? I say this because of the following... "ECS is a chipset type, that is mandatory to address upto 2mb of chipram. The reason is simple: OCS chipset is missing 2 address lines. 2 lines can have of course 4 values from 00...11, 4*512 = 2mb addrerssable chip ram area. Apart from the bonus 2 lines (and obviously gating the internal logic to use it, unless it was already in just never used) other changes are mainly video mode related (e.g. pal/ntsc switch), programmable frequencies, and a useless new video mode that was supposed to be professional. " Now I am really confused!

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