Smooth scrolling in 100Hz

Kintaro · 21 February 2003, 21:56

Hi

I read in a thread somewhere that it's possible to get smooth scrolling in 100Hz screen (with vsync).

On my computer 100Hz screen is not as smooth as a50 Hz screen. The 50Hz screen is as smooth as the original! (silk smooth, this really shows the quality of WinUAE!)

But I'm afraid this (50Hz) might damage my monitor. I read somewhere that 100Hz as smooth as 50Hz could be achieved with the use of a 'hardware overlay'. Could someone please explain this to me?

TIA

trodas · 21 February 2003, 22:09

You never even can manage 50fps scrolling at 100Hz screen W/O ghosting the image - its simply a fact, no matter what anyone else told you - and it happens on real Amiga too - using PicassoIV FlickerFixer you can push the PAL/NTSC refreshrate up to 120Hz, wheather 100Hz for PAL and 120Hz for NTSC (always exactly 2x) is desired.
But you very very soon realize, that this is simply NOT good for arcade scolling games.
Tought into games like SWIV you dont recognize a thing, ALL 50fps scrolling games, from TurricanII to SupeFrog show blured/ghosted image, when you moving.
Things get better (sharp), when you stop.
So, forget it.
50Hz or bust.
Try and if the monitor looks like he have problems, buy better one.

...tought, as max. frequency of monitors increasing, the flicking into 50Hz increasing too, since luminofors get tight and you have to set more Hz to get ergonomis refresh, that before, etc.

On PC i have to use 100Hz to get comfort with my eyes.
Years ago i used C=1084S W/O problems or any flicking - its because his luminofors light longer, and therefore not must be refreshed that much, as on modern monitors, so, you get comfort
at low refreshrate as well.
Fool-proof way of check what long your monitor hold the light into its screen luminofors, grab a 50Hz horizontal starfield, black background and white stars.
Compare, how long is the "ghost trail" after moving pixel and from that you can quess the diference between monitors.

(there are even longer lighting ones, that C=1084S, even Interlace dont flicking on these!!! - at least thats what i read long time ago... before RTG come...)

Kintaro · 21 February 2003, 22:24

Thanks for the info..

Yeah the 100Hz screen has the 'ghosting' problem....
It is vertically synced, but not smooth as silk. I think this is because the screen is updated twice before a new Amiga screen is ready.

Well I have to risk trashing my monitor then.
(It's an old philips from an office)

Then I'll get myself a better monitor

Echo · 21 February 2003, 22:30

I have a real Amiga, but I also have TV Out on my PC's video card. Quite possibly a must for the Amiga enthusiast. I'll assume the display is perfect (cpu permitting) via this method, give a TV Out card a try

Amiga1992 · 21 February 2003, 22:42

Do not worry about the monitor, you cant hurt it witha 50Hz refresh rate, I think. It's a pretty standard refresh rate.

And if it is a half decent monitor, as soon as you try to use an unsupported refresh rate, the monitor will automatically shut off the screen.

ethylene · 22 February 2003, 13:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Echo
I have a real Amiga, but I also have TV Out on my PC's video card. Quite possibly a must for the Amiga enthusiast. I'll assume the display is perfect (cpu permitting) via this method, give a TV Out card a try

Perfect? Wow, please tell us which videocard that is.

The problems I've found with GeForce cards are that TV Out is usually limited to two or three resolutions, usually 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768. And you've really got to use a third-party utility like TVCC to center and tweak the image because nVidia's driver support is just barely enough to get it working.

I've read that ATI cards are much better in respect to TV Out...

trodas · 22 February 2003, 15:03

...altrought its allways good try TV out on TV (allways is good to try things

), dont expect miracles.

The supported resolutions and requirments for refreshrates and such is the one problem, witch i dont even want to comment...

BUT.
There is stong but, and this is the quality of the TVout output. The letters are barely readable, in contrast of hi-quality Amiga output - im sorry, but is suxx big time, at least from what i tried and saw.
Compared to Amiga is this good only for nothing

So, i dont know, if this can satiscact anyone. Futhermore, from what i experienced, using two monitors (or TV and monitor) is pain in ass, good only for real schizofremics and not "feeling like conroling starship", witch M$ used to told us into some marketing bullshit

Syko · 22 February 2003, 15:42

If you use the TV out on any of the GeForce cards, then as ethylene says you'll be forced to use those three res's.

I'm using an Asus V8200 GF3 which has (S or Comp)Video in/out connected to a widescreen TV via the composite lead (I havn't got round to making the right Svideo/SCART lead yet). Both the PC and amiga outputs are quite useable for gaming and 12 point Ariel or TimesNewRoman in Word is readable, but fuzzy. Using Svideo/SCART would improve this a lot.

I've also got a util called TV Tool, which has all sorts of tricks for screen size, shape etc. and is very usefull, dont ask me anything about how to use it coz the help's in german (might be updated by now). It needs both monitor and TV connected at the same time when you first set it up, but once running you can leave the monitor off and it's fine - at least mine is ;-)

trodas · 23 February 2003, 12:32

Syko, sounds definitively better what i saw

But, well, friend using normal standard 9 point big fonts, and they are unreadable

And ofcourse, scart cable helps big, i remember when u used my A500 with TV modulator for only about 14 days, then i build the scart connection - even my TV this time dont support it, i hardwired it to the TV logic

But the tools and options are IMHO a little bit fakey. At lest the one "tweaker" what saw, have got functions like "de-interlacing" and such "usable" things.
The fact is, that it combine the two lines into one, and depending of the strenght of setings this ofcourse minimized the flicking, but also blurry the image to death

Please note that im not a fan of TVs, TSouts and such things

Its due to my experience with these things, the so called "quality" of their display, due to the internace way of showing picture, due to its microlines, lack of any sarpness and such...

Once i saw a DVD on the "so called great 27" (or it was 26?!)" TV at 100Hz... and bla bla bla - expensive like older car, and i nearly vomited from the results - eg. how the TV can criple the image from DVD is simply unbeliable.
(well, nearly the same way as users, who scale the output from DVDplayer to get it "fullscreen", but crippled and deformed and blurry...

- instead of just using special resolution for deadly-sharp fullscreen DVD playback...)
But i seems drifted out a little from topic

Echo · 23 February 2003, 15:27

Quote:

Originally posted by ethylene
Perfect? Wow, please tell us which videocard that is.

The problems I've found with GeForce cards are that TV Out is usually limited to two or three resolutions, usually 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768. And you've really got to use a third-party utility like TVCC to center and tweak the image because nVidia's driver support is just barely enough to get it working.

I've read that ATI cards are much better in respect to TV Out...

Perfect as far as RGB PAL can be - let's face it, it's not particularly brilliant anyway. I'm using my Amiga on a bigscreen TV, and that kinda hurts when in Workbench (putting up with a laced mode for the sake of aspect)

For the PC's output, I use TVTool, which allows me to change res, but best of all apply overscan to a PC output, which Amigas have been able to do all along. Overscan is a must when watching movies/TV from the PC (DivX).

I can also get the image pretty sharp too, remember to put TVTool's flicker filter all the way to the left, or things will start to look blurry. Coupled with contrast, I can get a very clear picture. It's great for playing emulators such as MAME32, Snes9X etc.

If you want correct full screen functioning, simply set your emulator to run at the same resolution fullscreen as your TV's resolution. Also change to TV mode before launching the emulator - or it all goes pear shaped. This method even works for PC games such as Quake 3. Which looks stunning on my TV, but the mouse/keyboard leads won't reach so I can actually play

Amiga1992 · 24 February 2003, 16:00

A bit off topic, but does anyone know of a bloody viodeocard with TV Out that outputs FULL OVERSCAN? I'm sick of all this nVidia border SHITE.

Drake1009 · 24 February 2003, 16:23

The Nvidia can show on the full screen but will show a bit too much too.

I heard there were some GeForce cards with a Phillips chip which supported fitting though.

I've worked a bit with a friend's ATI Radeon which fits the image exactly to the borders of his screen (just like TVTool does if you tell it to). So if you want a good TV out I think you might want to go for an ATI. That one also shows TV output in dos (I assume as it did on bootup from my friend's computer).

As for reading. The 12 pt looks fuzzy here too with a S-VHS cable but that's more likely due to my ancient TV.

Amiga1992 · 24 February 2003, 16:39

The ATI Radeon inside my iBook works great

But I'm looking for a decent PC card, I might consider an ATI bbut I recently bought this bloody TNT2 :/

TV Tool might help me to increase the border size? Never tried it.

Echo · 24 February 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Akira
A bit off topic, but does anyone know of a bloody viodeocard with TV Out that outputs FULL OVERSCAN? I'm sick of all this nVidia border SHITE.

All NVidia cards (AFAIK) are capable of full overscan. Both TNT2 and Geforce 3 Ti200 cards I've owned have managed it fine.

The crazy thing is though, the detonator drivers don't take advantage of this essential function. Which is why I use TV Tool to get the most out of my NVidia TV-out. You can't even assign hotkeys for tv mode on/off under the detonators, I mean %*&$@

Amiga1992 · 24 February 2003, 17:31

Heck, I dont have Detonator drivers, but my nVidia drivers still wont let me go overscan.

I will have to download this TVTool thing. Time to google a bit

Syko · 25 February 2003, 16:10

Akira, you need TV Tool. Both Echo and I use both our GF cards with a TV and it's simply the best TV out solution I've seen - my media server lives next to my TV and I never use a PC monitor with it.

The whole point of the media server is to hold my mp3's, DVD's, VCD's games and winUAE in one convenient location AND to output to TV. When I've got some cash spare (Ha, Ha, Ha,) I'm going to network the PC's upstairs with the media server and A4000 (that's 3 win/amd boxs, Linux server/web access and the A4000). Incidently winAMP's video output is cool in fullscreen - instant party mode.

One other thing, ALWAYS use the latest detonator drivers (or any other mfrs drivers for other h/w) many bugs and oddities get fixed and updating can fix a whole bunch of stuff, and if there's somthing that bugs you about some h/w, email techsupport at the mfrs, as they can usually either tell you how to fix it or pass the problem on to the driver writers - if you don't let them know, it won't get fixed.

Amiga1992 · 25 February 2003, 16:40

I got the latest drivers for my TNT2 M64, I remember I dloaded them recently from nVidia.

The only thing that bugs me TERRIBLY is the lack of support for overlay mode. I can't put my vidcap card's input in overlay mode, so I can't connect my consoles to it no more

I tried with MANY drivers, and even discussed it here, it seems it doesnt work with none of the drivers available

Syko · 25 February 2003, 17:18

erm, not sure how to say this, but, erm the M64 version of the TNT2 has a number of problems, err sorry. It's the only nvidea card I wouldn't recommend, because of them. Recommend selling to unsuspecting person if you can.... and replace with GF2 or better - I've used a PCI GF2 MX400 without any problems.

Amiga1992 · 25 February 2003, 17:24

Yup I already know it has problems

. But I was on a tight budget and had to cut short in the vidcard department. Teh Geforce costed 4 times as much as this one!

Except for the overlay bug, everything else works just fine. Let's try TVTool with it.

/me goes grab TV set

Syko · 25 February 2003, 17:36

The bug's in the hardware I'm afraid, so there is no way to fix it.

21 February 2003, 21:56	#1
Kintaro Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Hague/Netherlands Posts: 15	Smooth scrolling in 100Hz Hi I read in a thread somewhere that it's possible to get smooth scrolling in 100Hz screen (with vsync). On my computer 100Hz screen is not as smooth as a50 Hz screen. The 50Hz screen is as smooth as the original! (silk smooth, this really shows the quality of WinUAE!) But I'm afraid this (50Hz) might damage my monitor. I read somewhere that 100Hz as smooth as 50Hz could be achieved with the use of a 'hardware overlay'. Could someone please explain this to me? TIA

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21 February 2003, 22:09	#2
trodas old Amiga fanatic Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Czech republic Age: 48 Posts: 92	You never even can manage 50fps scrolling at 100Hz screen W/O ghosting the image - its simply a fact, no matter what anyone else told you - and it happens on real Amiga too - using PicassoIV FlickerFixer you can push the PAL/NTSC refreshrate up to 120Hz, wheather 100Hz for PAL and 120Hz for NTSC (always exactly 2x) is desired. But you very very soon realize, that this is simply NOT good for arcade scolling games. Tought into games like SWIV you dont recognize a thing, ALL 50fps scrolling games, from TurricanII to SupeFrog show blured/ghosted image, when you moving. Things get better (sharp), when you stop. So, forget it. 50Hz or bust. Try and if the monitor looks like he have problems, buy better one. ...tought, as max. frequency of monitors increasing, the flicking into 50Hz increasing too, since luminofors get tight and you have to set more Hz to get ergonomis refresh, that before, etc. On PC i have to use 100Hz to get comfort with my eyes. Years ago i used C=1084S W/O problems or any flicking - its because his luminofors light longer, and therefore not must be refreshed that much, as on modern monitors, so, you get comfort at low refreshrate as well. Fool-proof way of check what long your monitor hold the light into its screen luminofors, grab a 50Hz horizontal starfield, black background and white stars. Compare, how long is the "ghost trail" after moving pixel and from that you can quess the diference between monitors. (there are even longer lighting ones, that C=1084S, even Interlace dont flicking on these!!! - at least thats what i read long time ago... before RTG come...)

21 February 2003, 22:24	#3
Kintaro Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Hague/Netherlands Posts: 15	Thanks for the info.. Yeah the 100Hz screen has the 'ghosting' problem.... It is vertically synced, but not smooth as silk. I think this is because the screen is updated twice before a new Amiga screen is ready. Well I have to risk trashing my monitor then. (It's an old philips from an office) Then I'll get myself a better monitor

21 February 2003, 22:30	#4
Echo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South-West Wales Posts: 382	I have a real Amiga, but I also have TV Out on my PC's video card. Quite possibly a must for the Amiga enthusiast. I'll assume the display is perfect (cpu permitting) via this method, give a TV Out card a try

21 February 2003, 22:42	#5
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Do not worry about the monitor, you cant hurt it witha 50Hz refresh rate, I think. It's a pretty standard refresh rate. And if it is a half decent monitor, as soon as you try to use an unsupported refresh rate, the monitor will automatically shut off the screen.

22 February 2003, 15:03	#7
trodas old Amiga fanatic Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Czech republic Age: 48 Posts: 92	...altrought its allways good try TV out on TV (allways is good to try things ), dont expect miracles. The supported resolutions and requirments for refreshrates and such is the one problem, witch i dont even want to comment... BUT. There is stong but, and this is the quality of the TVout output. The letters are barely readable, in contrast of hi-quality Amiga output - im sorry, but is suxx big time, at least from what i tried and saw. Compared to Amiga is this good only for nothing So, i dont know, if this can satiscact anyone. Futhermore, from what i experienced, using two monitors (or TV and monitor) is pain in ass, good only for real schizofremics and not "feeling like conroling starship", witch M$ used to told us into some marketing bullshit

22 February 2003, 15:42	#8
Syko Now got GSX750F :)) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Halifax UK Age: 60 Posts: 584	If you use the TV out on any of the GeForce cards, then as ethylene says you'll be forced to use those three res's. I'm using an Asus V8200 GF3 which has (S or Comp)Video in/out connected to a widescreen TV via the composite lead (I havn't got round to making the right Svideo/SCART lead yet). Both the PC and amiga outputs are quite useable for gaming and 12 point Ariel or TimesNewRoman in Word is readable, but fuzzy. Using Svideo/SCART would improve this a lot. I've also got a util called TV Tool, which has all sorts of tricks for screen size, shape etc. and is very usefull, dont ask me anything about how to use it coz the help's in german (might be updated by now). It needs both monitor and TV connected at the same time when you first set it up, but once running you can leave the monitor off and it's fine - at least mine is ;-)

23 February 2003, 12:32	#9
trodas old Amiga fanatic Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Czech republic Age: 48 Posts: 92	Syko, sounds definitively better what i saw But, well, friend using normal standard 9 point big fonts, and they are unreadable And ofcourse, scart cable helps big, i remember when u used my A500 with TV modulator for only about 14 days, then i build the scart connection - even my TV this time dont support it, i hardwired it to the TV logic But the tools and options are IMHO a little bit fakey. At lest the one "tweaker" what saw, have got functions like "de-interlacing" and such "usable" things. The fact is, that it combine the two lines into one, and depending of the strenght of setings this ofcourse minimized the flicking, but also blurry the image to death Please note that im not a fan of TVs, TSouts and such things Its due to my experience with these things, the so called "quality" of their display, due to the internace way of showing picture, due to its microlines, lack of any sarpness and such... Once i saw a DVD on the "so called great 27" (or it was 26?!)" TV at 100Hz... and bla bla bla - expensive like older car, and i nearly vomited from the results - eg. how the TV can criple the image from DVD is simply unbeliable. (well, nearly the same way as users, who scale the output from DVDplayer to get it "fullscreen", but crippled and deformed and blurry... - instead of just using special resolution for deadly-sharp fullscreen DVD playback...) But i seems drifted out a little from topic

24 February 2003, 16:00	#11
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	A bit off topic, but does anyone know of a bloody viodeocard with TV Out that outputs FULL OVERSCAN? I'm sick of all this nVidia border SHITE.

24 February 2003, 16:23	#12
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	The Nvidia can show on the full screen but will show a bit too much too. I heard there were some GeForce cards with a Phillips chip which supported fitting though. I've worked a bit with a friend's ATI Radeon which fits the image exactly to the borders of his screen (just like TVTool does if you tell it to). So if you want a good TV out I think you might want to go for an ATI. That one also shows TV output in dos (I assume as it did on bootup from my friend's computer). As for reading. The 12 pt looks fuzzy here too with a S-VHS cable but that's more likely due to my ancient TV.

24 February 2003, 16:39	#13
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	The ATI Radeon inside my iBook works great But I'm looking for a decent PC card, I might consider an ATI bbut I recently bought this bloody TNT2 :/ TV Tool might help me to increase the border size? Never tried it.

24 February 2003, 17:31	#15
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Heck, I dont have Detonator drivers, but my nVidia drivers still wont let me go overscan. I will have to download this TVTool thing. Time to google a bit

25 February 2003, 16:10	#16
Syko Now got GSX750F :)) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Halifax UK Age: 60 Posts: 584	Akira, you need TV Tool. Both Echo and I use both our GF cards with a TV and it's simply the best TV out solution I've seen - my media server lives next to my TV and I never use a PC monitor with it. The whole point of the media server is to hold my mp3's, DVD's, VCD's games and winUAE in one convenient location AND to output to TV. When I've got some cash spare (Ha, Ha, Ha,) I'm going to network the PC's upstairs with the media server and A4000 (that's 3 win/amd boxs, Linux server/web access and the A4000). Incidently winAMP's video output is cool in fullscreen - instant party mode. One other thing, ALWAYS use the latest detonator drivers (or any other mfrs drivers for other h/w) many bugs and oddities get fixed and updating can fix a whole bunch of stuff, and if there's somthing that bugs you about some h/w, email techsupport at the mfrs, as they can usually either tell you how to fix it or pass the problem on to the driver writers - if you don't let them know, it won't get fixed.

25 February 2003, 16:40	#17
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	I got the latest drivers for my TNT2 M64, I remember I dloaded them recently from nVidia. The only thing that bugs me TERRIBLY is the lack of support for overlay mode. I can't put my vidcap card's input in overlay mode, so I can't connect my consoles to it no more I tried with MANY drivers, and even discussed it here, it seems it doesnt work with none of the drivers available

25 February 2003, 17:18	#18
Syko Now got GSX750F :)) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Halifax UK Age: 60 Posts: 584	erm, not sure how to say this, but, erm the M64 version of the TNT2 has a number of problems, err sorry. It's the only nvidea card I wouldn't recommend, because of them. Recommend selling to unsuspecting person if you can.... and replace with GF2 or better - I've used a PCI GF2 MX400 without any problems.

25 February 2003, 17:24	#19
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,646	Yup I already know it has problems . But I was on a tight budget and had to cut short in the vidcard department. Teh Geforce costed 4 times as much as this one! Except for the overlay bug, everything else works just fine. Let's try TVTool with it. /me goes grab TV set

25 February 2003, 17:36	#20
Syko Now got GSX750F :)) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Halifax UK Age: 60 Posts: 584	The bug's in the hardware I'm afraid, so there is no way to fix it.

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