Apollo Team IceDrake V4 Accelerator For the Amiga 1200 out in Q1: 2022

[Crom]

Coming soon from Apollo Team, made in Germany

445 Euros ($504 USD based on exchange rate of the day) Sans VAT.

Coming Q1: 2022

[DDNI]

Good luck with the project. Although I suspect the PiStorm for A1200 will be a more tempting and affordable project for many to wait on.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by DDNI

Good luck with the project. Although I suspect the PiStorm for A1200 will be a more tempting and affordable project for many to wait on.

yes and no

both projects have similarities but also differences

[Pyromania]

Looks like a cool product.

[acidbottle]

Given the cost of a full fat 060 and an accelerator board for it, this is a pretty good price.

Sadly is still out of my budget but looks amazing.

[Crom]

Originally Posted by DDNI

Good luck with the project. Although I suspect the PiStorm for A1200 will be a more tempting and affordable project for many to wait on.

The Vampire range offers 16 bit audio extended AGA modes, and RTG along with AMMX for media processing. I am a big fan of the Pistorm one thing that keeps me coming back to the new V4 range of accelerators is the expanded chip ram and increased speed through use of the AGA core. This eliminates the hassle of trying to source 2mb chip ram on old Rev 3/5 A500s or an A1000. So prices being what they are when you factor in the cost of sourcing a 2mb AGNUS for an A1000 or A500 early rev the value of this configuration is quite clear. Especially for those of in love with our classic machines and the concept of the ultimate upgrade.

[Crom]

Originally Posted by acidbottle

Given the cost of a full fat 060 and an accelerator board for it, this is a pretty good price.

Sadly is still out of my budget but looks amazing.

I was able to get an 060 for around $90 or so shipped and I lucked out it was a full 060. I also got the TF 060 card from the Terrible Fire team member Allen in Canada. The base speed was a big upgrade from my ACA 030 card. But compared to the Vampire the 060 seemed slow. To the credit of the Terrible Fire card you can overclock the 060, on my rev 6 that was up to 75 mhz and the chip become hot to the touch. With this setting it was noticeably faster but I fear active cooling would be required to use it in the long run. You can also use a non FPU based integer only 060 chip on the terrible fire. We all drooled after non FPU 030 accelerators back in the day so why not?

So in my assessment in the modern day landscape the 060 is the new modern day 030. The Vampire is still king of the hill for me with speed and all amenities I have a hard time walking away from now.

This coupled with Apollo OS and ApolloBOOT loader WB distro with options for ApolloOS, Coffin, OS3.1, 3.2 and Tiny BL game launcher I am quite happy and use them as my daily Amiga driver systems.

I will also get the Pistorm 1200 whenever that comes out. But sadly I check the discord and the supply chain issues are pushing back release and constraining release of that projects hardware back quite a bit. Good things come to those who wait. Luckily ApolloTEAM ordered all the FPGA's they needed ahead of production from a European division so they are good to go for all the V4 products in the pipeline.

[Promilus]

@Crom - ok so let's get going. AMMX - basically useless unless some rare software made by either vampire users or apollo team themselves.
RTG - well it works on PiStorm as well
16bit audio - Broadcom on RPI does have audio as well, also 3D accelerated graphics FPGA will never match. Will take some time to get that working under AOS but it is there.
SIMD - guess what, every aarch64 core does have that
Overall even few years old ARM SoC provides way more than cyclone V E series based turbo card ever could - the only problem is with implementing those hardware functionalities under AmigaOS system so they'd work as standardized amiga subsystems (ahi, rtg, cgx, warp3d)
On the other hand expanded chip ram of Vampire only works with emulated chipset (so new V4 based cards won't introduce more chipram for OCS and AGA already on Amiga board!) and also most existing apps won't get any particular use from that (since those are already pretty optimized to fit inside 2MB hard limit! and those using RTG doesn't need bigger chip ram at all). Also moving all functionality from amiga board to accelerator turns original amiga to keyboard interface and power supply. It's something ppl already did 20 years ago with their PPC accelerators and PCI bridgeboards but they did only with "amiga ng" in mind so to eventually swap to whole new hardware. Not to keep their 68k as main course - and that's what apollo team tries to propagate. 68k development is dying. While it has pretty fun asm it makes no difference when writing software in C. And when writing software in C it's basically easier to either introduce something working blazing fast by recompiling code on the fly (jit emulation) or just introduce new, native ISA to be able to run under AOS (like PPC apps on AOS3.x with WarpOS). Will see how things progresses but there's potential in SoC that regular softcore in FPGA won't be able to match. All depends how much of SoC capabilities would be usable on Amiga side.

[Crom]

I hear your points but lots of what you mention center around "what if" so with the V4 range things have matured to the point where things actually "are". So if you hate using your Amiga as nothing more than a power supply when A Vampire is connected to it then get a standalone solution they have it in the V4 Standalone, if you want your original Amiga with varying degrees of custom chips in core you have it.

AMMX: The team provides code examples and has provided sample code for developers to follow in the form of sample games using RTG and SAGA modes.

68k: It's dead Jim, OK but PPC even worse.... and native ARM Support in Amiga? Well it's in tadpole stage at best. At least both cool projects like Pistorm and V4 080 cores are both running a common code base instead of fragmenting the user base between PPC and 68k Classic

So when I look at the landscape and think about things I can actually buy in a useable state V4 is right at the top of the list.

To be clear there are more V4's coming months, not years from now. More power to those that can produce and follow through on the "what if" features but if it was easy everyone would be doing it. Add the supply chain woes to the mix and its going to be a couple of years before some other projects get out there in the numbers I as an Amiga fan would love to see.

Originally Posted by Promilus

@Crom - ok so let's get going. AMMX - basically useless unless some rare software made by either vampire users or apollo team themselves.
RTG - well it works on PiStorm as well
16bit audio - SNIP THATS A LOT OF TEXT.

[Pyromania]

Even though I have an X5000 and enjoy it I find myself using my Vampire V4 more so the Apollo Team is doing something right.

[Crom]

Originally Posted by Pyromania

Even though I have an X5000 and enjoy it I find myself using my Vampire V4 more so the Apollo Team is doing something right.

Have you tried apollo bootloader? During the day I use ApolloOS, Amiga OS 3.2, and Coffin in my Amiga basement Man Cave.... at night, I take the v4 to the living room on my 65" HDTV and boot into the Tiny Boot Loader arcade game WHDload distro and play some games..... The V4 is like the Mac Mini of the Amiga World.

[Pyromania]

I’ll give it a try.

[manossg]

I have to guiltily admit that my V4 gets way more use than my A500.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Promilus

68k development is dying.

Not just 68k development, the developers are dying too. Some of us will be lucky to get another 10 years before we shuffle off our mortal coils. After we're gone you can laugh at our desire to continue enjoying the machines we love. But of course by then the 'modern' tech you prefer will be just as quaint ("What, you still use a computer? Too scared to jack your mind into the hive, eh pops?").

While it has pretty fun asm it makes no difference when writing software in C.

I see your point. Making no difference is not at all fun (yet another reason to prefer asm). But C is a dead language - everyone uses Python now!

And when writing software in C it's basically easier to either introduce something working blazing fast by recompiling code on the fly (jit emulation) or just introduce new, native ISA to be able to run under AOS (like PPC apps on AOS3.x with WarpOS). Will see how things progresses but there's potential in SoC that regular softcore in FPGA won't be able to match. All depends how much of SoC capabilities would be usable on Amiga side.

I've done a bit of C programming on the Amiga, Windows and various MCUs, but I never knew "recompiling code on the fly (jit emulation)" or "introduce new, native ISA" would be so easy! Probably only takes 3 lines of Python code, right? I feel so old...

[Promilus]

@Bruce
I don't really know what you're getting at

but I never knew "recompiling code on the fly (jit emulation)" or "introduce new, native ISA" would be so easy

You do have at least several projects on either ARM or x86 which does translate 68k ISA into their native machine code. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, duh!

I see your point

No you don't. And my point was that biggest Gunnar claim to hold 68k was it's elegant assembler ... which most developers trying to port or make interesting games using both AC68080 performance and SAGA capabilities just won't use so it doesn't matter how nice 68k assembler is. It doesn't even matter if it generates 68k binary. If there was interface such as WarpOS which would allow ARM native binaries to run under AmigaOS and IDE which could produce ARM apps with AOS ABI, using standard functions and libraries - it doesn't take a genius to realize it doesn't matter on which cpu platform you compile as long as you can write the same code in a higher level language (which still is C or C++ for most MCU, Windows, Linux and AmigaOS hobbyist stuff). You have to write specific parts of application to use AMMX so what difference does it make to take some additional steps to use AMMX or take some steps to use NEON?

But of course by then the 'modern' tech you prefer will be just as quaint

Oh... and Cyclone V with DDR3 is some retro tech which is why you ruled it out of "modern" ? I consider both PiStorm and all FPGA-based accelerators as yet another stopgap just like 060 and PPC accelerators back in the day. But PPC accelerators were a link to a (supposedly) next generation of Amiga which sadly died along with PPC. Vampire isn't anything which could work out in the future. There are ppl claiming ASIC version is possibility and it would work wonders. Well that's a wishful thinking. Year after year it'd be harder to get any support of new libs, apps, ide, compilers for 68k. And while we could argue about the future of AC68080 all day - one fact remains, pretty darn fast ARM is ALREADY HERE! And with a pace dictated by Apple it should be pretty obvious ARM will get much faster in near future. At the same time bigger and faster FPGAs will still be quite expensive and quite slow. So from my point of view there's more dynamic progress in terms of ARM-based Amiga solutions than FPGA softcores. And that's exactly what I stated. Not what I love more. I love my classic amiga and if I had to update anything I'd rather love to see e.g. agnus/alice replacement with access to more chip ram, faster access to chip ram and no WS for CPU. Native SATA and high speed USB mass storage + HID, decent upscaler with adjustable filters. I really don't care about something which allows me to watch mpeg1 video in small window or play 20+ old pc game. I do appreciate things which allow me to use my classic amiga in most convenient way and doesn't go too far away from original. For "fastest" amiga-like I can always run either Winuae (with original AOS3.1.4) or Icaros (VM under linux) both working so damn good no other frankenamiga can match (so with pcie nvme tons of fast ram and bloody fast cpu).

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Promilus

@Crom - ok so let's get going. AMMX - basically useless unless some rare software made by either vampire users or apollo team themselves.
RTG - well it works on PiStorm as well
16bit audio - Broadcom on RPI does have audio as well, also 3D accelerated graphics FPGA will never match. Will take some time to get that working under AOS but it is there.
SIMD - guess what, every aarch64 core does have that
Overall even few years old ARM SoC provides way more than cyclone V E series based turbo card ever could - the only problem is with implementing those hardware functionalities under AmigaOS system so they'd work as standardized amiga subsystems (ahi, rtg, cgx, warp3d)
On the other hand expanded chip ram of Vampire only works with emulated chipset (so new V4 based cards won't introduce more chipram for OCS and AGA already on Amiga board!) and also most existing apps won't get any particular use from that (since those are already pretty optimized to fit inside 2MB hard limit! and those using RTG doesn't need bigger chip ram at all). Also moving all functionality from amiga board to accelerator turns original amiga to keyboard interface and power supply. It's something ppl already did 20 years ago with their PPC accelerators and PCI bridgeboards but they did only with "amiga ng" in mind so to eventually swap to whole new hardware. Not to keep their 68k as main course - and that's what apollo team tries to propagate. 68k development is dying. While it has pretty fun asm it makes no difference when writing software in C. And when writing software in C it's basically easier to either introduce something working blazing fast by recompiling code on the fly (jit emulation) or just introduce new, native ISA to be able to run under AOS (like PPC apps on AOS3.x with WarpOS). Will see how things progresses but there's potential in SoC that regular softcore in FPGA won't be able to match. All depends how much of SoC capabilities would be usable on Amiga side.

I like the idea of PiStorm. Competition is always good and we need a gneral lift of the hardware base to get better software (expecially games).

Running f.e. Aros natively 68k on RPi like Michal is planning (based on emu68 as layer) sounds really cool and will potentially bring new users from outside.

On the other hand also V4 and the new cards are also a good concept. Both concepts have advantages and disadvantages and can and will live side by side and not killing each other. Also Apollo team is enhancing Aros and from that all users will benefit. Cooperation is the way to go in my view. I am currently happy with the direction it goes and think the glass is half-full.

[Crom]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

I like the idea of PiStorm. Competition is always good and we need a gneral lift of the hardware base to get better software (expecially games).

I am currently happy with the direction it goes and think the glass is half-full.

Yes despite the ongoing supply chain issues the fact that 68K accelerators are the classic Amigas new killer product is a good common ground to work on. Thankfully the Apollo Team learned from the mistakes of the V2 range and gor their supply chain in order before making V4.

The PPC vs 68K struggle didn't do anyone any favors at the end of the day. I too am happy at all the offerings you can order today and the pistorm 1200 in development.

[phx]

Originally Posted by Promilus

If there was interface such as WarpOS which would allow ARM native binaries to run under AmigaOS and IDE which could produce ARM apps with AOS ABI, using standard functions and libraries

Then it would fail like WarpOS did, and like MorphOS did, and like OS4 did, and like AROS did. The only difference is that repeating these mistakes with a new architecture will even fail earlier now, because there are less developers and less users interested in it, than one or two decades ago.

The performance doesn't help you when the applications are missing. You will never be able to create a system which could be used as an alternative to modern PCs. So why bother? Most Amiga fans realized that over the years, and prefer to have fun with their classic hardware.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by phx

Then it would fail like WarpOS did, and like MorphOS did, and like OS4 did, and like AROS did. The only difference is that repeating these mistakes with a new architecture will even fail earlier now, because there are less developers and less users interested in it, than one or two decades ago.

The performance doesn't help you when the applications are missing. You will never be able to create a system which could be used as an alternative to modern PCs. So why bother? Most Amiga fans realized that over the years, and prefer to have fun with their classic hardware.

Why has Aros failed?

Aros failed as NG platform based on X86 hardware. It is still living even if in a way the original creators did not expect

Yes the main problem is lack of modern software (both for developers and users). People use a desktop to do something, not just moving around windows. If software and drivers lack and you can do the same on another platform but easier people will use that platform. And to run old software and games you do not need a supermodern desktop with 64bit and SMP.

[grond]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

Why has Aros failed?

Well, I think a more precise wording would be "Aros hasn't succeeded yet"...