WHDLoad: Requirement to have a KS 1.3 image to play WHD games

andreas · 12 May 2002, 19:33

Hi,

well that change was quite obvious. Until now, I've never read anything in the readme included with WHDload installers that a WHDload-installed game requires a KS 1.3 image from an A500!

IIRC, previous releases of installers (from last year and earlier) didn't have this requirement because it was possible to make the game work on, say, an A4000 with 68040 or 68060 processor because there were people that supported some fixes for these machines. And no, there wasn't any KS 1.3 image necessary, if so, prove me wrong.
I might have too few insight in this (well, I even admit it

), but I think that it might give some WHD "outsiders" an impression of trying to shorten intervals of WHD releases by releasing stuff requiring external ROM images. IOW, if there's an interest to abide the rule of not making use of external images, the release would've taken more time, because it would've required more "in-depth" work.

In any case, just a few thoughts, and most probably, not all of these would actually apply.

Frog · 12 May 2002, 20:13

Some games such as Cinemaware, Lucasfilm are really hard to fix as they often use lot of system call. Without a Kick1.3 emul it should need lot of works (when it's possible to fix them without it). Of course some WHDLoad members can choose to use kick1.3 emul for an "easier/faster" fix. Personnaly i don't really care, all what i ask is to be able to run a game/demo fully on my A1200 without any bugs. If a WHDLoad member want to check his skill and have fun to fix a game without any kick1.3 image, he can still do that.
Here was just an user opinion, now i'm waiting for a more advanced answer by some WHDLoad members.

andreas · 12 May 2002, 22:30

Quote:

Of course some WHDLoad members can choose to use kick1.3 emul for an "easier/faster" fix.

Can't help myself but...
To me, it has the feel of a kludge.

Codetapper · 13 May 2002, 05:00

OK guys, here is how it works!

WHDLoad completely throws away the Amiga's operating system so when a game is running, there is nothing apart from the hardware. Any references to Exec or any libraries are set to invalid addresses so WHDLoad will quit the game at that point.

In the early days, only certain games could be installed. Any like Cinemaware or early EOA games used the O/S heavily and thus would just quit straight away.

A few games used only a small part of the operating system, so Harry invented the OSEmu module for the game Another World. This installed a few basic functions like allocating memory and loading files which meant some games would now be able to work with WHDLoad.

Some games (Fly Harder springs to mind) use only a few functions in the operating system so the HD installer writer can choose to emulate these routines in the slave (which I did) rather than including OSEmu or needing another 256k for the Kickstart 1.3 rom. It depends on how much effort you are prepared to put in to remove the extra memory which is needed. Some games use the O/S all through it and are a nightmare to patch, so in these cases it's easier just to include the Kickstart 1.3 rom and use the patches which make it work.

So basically there is no kludge going on here, some games which are very o/s friendly would be impossible to get working without it and others are just due to laziness on the programmers point of view. Most of those Minuous HD fixes for example do not need Kickstart 1.3 at all but since they work he has hacked a generic slave together with it.

Galahad/FLT · 13 May 2002, 20:59

Games such as Centurion: Defender of Rome, or Kings Quest, Lucasfilm games........ They use AmigaDOS very heavily.

Consider that games such as Another World, Top Gear 2, Alien Breed 3D, only use small portions, hence OSEmu.

To write an OSEmu that would take care of all of the functions of the first listing of games... well, it would have to be the size of the Kickstart 1.3 Rom..... why re-invent the wheel, and introduce more bugs when the implementation of the Kickstart will (hopefully!) remove them?

OSEmu would become big bulky and prone to errors, therefore the KickDOS emulation cannot be considered as a kludge, because it is saving installers a lot of time and ensuring that you get the games you want installed sooner rather than a lot, lot later!

andreas · 13 May 2002, 22:48

Thanks for the infos so far.

Minuous · 14 May 2002, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Codetapper
So basically there is no kludge going on here, some games which are very o/s friendly would be impossible to get working without it and others are just due to laziness on the programmers point of view. Most of those Minuous HD fixes for example do not need Kickstart 1.3 at all but since they work he has hacked a generic slave together with it.

Eh?? Minuous HD-fixes? Much as I would like to take the credit for it :-) it wasn't me, perhaps you have me confused with someone else? tomcat666 for example?

12 May 2002, 19:33	#1
andreas Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,857	WHDLoad: Requirement to have a KS 1.3 image to play WHD games Hi, well that change was quite obvious. Until now, I've never read anything in the readme included with WHDload installers that a WHDload-installed game requires a KS 1.3 image from an A500! IIRC, previous releases of installers (from last year and earlier) didn't have this requirement because it was possible to make the game work on, say, an A4000 with 68040 or 68060 processor because there were people that supported some fixes for these machines. And no, there wasn't any KS 1.3 image necessary, if so, prove me wrong. I might have too few insight in this (well, I even admit it ), but I think that it might give some WHD "outsiders" an impression of trying to shorten intervals of WHD releases by releasing stuff requiring external ROM images. IOW, if there's an interest to abide the rule of not making use of external images, the release would've taken more time, because it would've required more "in-depth" work. In any case, just a few thoughts, and most probably, not all of these would actually apply. Last edited by andreas; 12 May 2002 at 19:40.

13 May 2002, 05:00	#4
Codetapper 2 contact me: email only! Join Date: May 2001 Location: Auckland / New Zealand Posts: 3,187	Kickstart files in WHDLoad games OK guys, here is how it works! WHDLoad completely throws away the Amiga's operating system so when a game is running, there is nothing apart from the hardware. Any references to Exec or any libraries are set to invalid addresses so WHDLoad will quit the game at that point. In the early days, only certain games could be installed. Any like Cinemaware or early EOA games used the O/S heavily and thus would just quit straight away. A few games used only a small part of the operating system, so Harry invented the OSEmu module for the game Another World. This installed a few basic functions like allocating memory and loading files which meant some games would now be able to work with WHDLoad. Some games (Fly Harder springs to mind) use only a few functions in the operating system so the HD installer writer can choose to emulate these routines in the slave (which I did) rather than including OSEmu or needing another 256k for the Kickstart 1.3 rom. It depends on how much effort you are prepared to put in to remove the extra memory which is needed. Some games use the O/S all through it and are a nightmare to patch, so in these cases it's easier just to include the Kickstart 1.3 rom and use the patches which make it work. So basically there is no kludge going on here, some games which are very o/s friendly would be impossible to get working without it and others are just due to laziness on the programmers point of view. Most of those Minuous HD fixes for example do not need Kickstart 1.3 at all but since they work he has hacked a generic slave together with it.

13 May 2002, 20:59	#5
Galahad/FLT Going nowhere Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: United Kingdom Age: 50 Posts: 9,016	Consider this..... Games such as Centurion: Defender of Rome, or Kings Quest, Lucasfilm games........ They use AmigaDOS very heavily. Consider that games such as Another World, Top Gear 2, Alien Breed 3D, only use small portions, hence OSEmu. To write an OSEmu that would take care of all of the functions of the first listing of games... well, it would have to be the size of the Kickstart 1.3 Rom..... why re-invent the wheel, and introduce more bugs when the implementation of the Kickstart will (hopefully!) remove them? OSEmu would become big bulky and prone to errors, therefore the KickDOS emulation cannot be considered as a kludge, because it is saving installers a lot of time and ensuring that you get the games you want installed sooner rather than a lot, lot later! Last edited by Galahad/FLT; 13 May 2002 at 22:59.

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12 May 2002, 20:13	#2
Frog Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: France Posts: 1,385	Some games such as Cinemaware, Lucasfilm are really hard to fix as they often use lot of system call. Without a Kick1.3 emul it should need lot of works (when it's possible to fix them without it). Of course some WHDLoad members can choose to use kick1.3 emul for an "easier/faster" fix. Personnaly i don't really care, all what i ask is to be able to run a game/demo fully on my A1200 without any bugs. If a WHDLoad member want to check his skill and have fun to fix a game without any kick1.3 image, he can still do that. Here was just an user opinion, now i'm waiting for a more advanced answer by some WHDLoad members.

13 May 2002, 22:48	#6
andreas Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,857	Thanks for the infos so far.

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