Python for Amiga ? - Page 6

AlfaRomeo · 30 November 2021, 16:02

According to the TIOBE index, Python is now 1st in the programming languages ranking and probably will stay near that place in the future.
Rexx don't even appear in the top 50.
As almost all actual Amiga users do have real hardware accelerated Amigas or emulators installed in full powered machines, I think all will win if AmigaOS devlopers/distributers replace ARexx by Python 3.
What do you all think about that?

jotd · 30 November 2021, 16:18

I think that porting Python 3 for classic amigas is a challenge

That would be cool, but also maybe too heavy/slow for the machine.

AlfaRomeo · 30 November 2021, 17:02

Guillaume Roguez already ported Python 2.7 and 3 to MorphOS, so porting it for AmigaOS is a halfway job. The weakest accelerated boards in the market are 68030's, maybe they are enough for the task. Today ARexx in AOS is a waste because it´s a half-dead language, there are no books or visible developing in Rexx and in the future will be worse.

daxb · 30 November 2021, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlfaRomeo

I think all will win if AmigaOS devlopers/distributers replace ARexx by Python 3.

Will not happen because there is nearly no development in this area and a lot of software is dead for decades; no sources available and so on. It is just too late and Amiga is more or less dead. IMO for a developer it is still a valid choice to support ARexx in software. It is known good. At least it fits to Amiga environment.

I tried Python 2 on Amiga 1200 (1240/40) around 20 years ago and as far as I can remember I have no positive memories unfortunately. Further, I guess that porting Python 3 to 68k Amiga and be up to date is a very large task.

Daedalus · 30 November 2021, 17:29

Replacing ARexx with Python was the approach taken by OS4, though it also includes the full ARexx interpreter. Essentially, it provides access to ARexx ports from Python. A similar approach could surely be done for OS3, but I do have to wonder why? Yes, ARexx isn't in the top 50 programming languages, but the Amiga isn't in the top 50 computer brands either.

ARexx also works just fine on a 68000, and given that OS 3.1.4 and 3.2 took a step back in terms of CPU requirements from the 68020 required for OS 3.9, it doesn't seem like a great idea to suddenly require an accelerator for a core part of the OS. Also, 68030s are most certainly not the "weakest" accelerator on the market - bear in mind that the ACA 500+ is simply a faster 68000, and that many people opt for fast-RAM only boards.

By all means, develop a Python bridge that allows Python scripts to use ARexx ports and commands, and upload it to Aminet. That will let anyone who wants to, to use Python in place of ARexx. But suddenly upping the hardware requirements of the OS to use a different scripting language because it's popular seems a bit pointless.

Lord Aga · 30 November 2021, 17:33

Python 3 is for chumps anyway. We'll wait for Python 4!

stevelord · 30 November 2021, 19:09

Replace. No,, that's not gonna happen. Release Python 3? Ehhh maybe. Python 2.4 on an 060/50 is fairly slow anyway. It makes sense on PPC but I don't see it working well on non-virtualised 68k. That's not to say a port wouldn't be welcome if you wanted to make one.

Pyromania · 30 November 2021, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Aga

Python 3 is for chumps anyway. We'll wait for Python 4!

I’ll be waiting for Python 6 with Quantum Computer extensions,

deimos · 30 November 2021, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyromania

I’ll be waiting for Python 6 with Quantum Computer extensions,

I'd be happy if they just dropped the significant white space moronity.

Bruce Abbott · 30 November 2021, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlfaRomeo

According to the TIOBE index, Python is now 1st in the programming languages ranking and probably will stay near that place in the future.
Rexx don't even appear in the top 50.
As almost all actual Amiga users do have real hardware accelerated Amigas or emulators installed in full powered machines, I think all will win if AmigaOS devlopers/distributers replace ARexx by Python 3.
What do you all think about that?

Being 1st in that ranking sounds impressive until you see that it only has 11.77%, and Java is a close 3rd with 10.72% (suspiciously accurate percentages there...).

I think Python is crap, and if a future Amiga OS switches to then it will be crap too. We need AREXX anyway for existing apps, so why replace it?

What is the point of Python on the Amiga? There's lot's of code out there, but most of it is useless without the bloated libraries it needs that aren't available on the Amiga. The performance of most interpreters stink. AREXX was written in hand-crafted assembler so it should be reasonably fast. Python won't be. It will suck processing power that we don't have to spare. Why should we have to go the PC way of needing more and more powerful machines just to compensate for the bloat?

As for "almost all actual Amiga users do have real hardware accelerated Amigas or emulators installed in full powered machines" I think you might be misjudging the actual market. Most Amiga users are in it for the retro experience, and don't have machines powerful enough to run Python natively at a reasonable speed even if they wanted it (which we don't because it is not Amiga!).

And finally, did I mention that Python is crap? Any language that forces you to use a specific number of tabs in the source code is not worthy of my time.

fxgogo · 30 November 2021, 22:32

Ha, ha ha, I love your responses Bruce.

coldacid · 30 November 2021, 22:50

Well, he's not wrong.

redblade · 02 December 2021, 22:50

@jotd: Your Amiga tools that you code in Python, Is it possible to code them in ARexx or is it because of the CPU speed of your PC/MAC you use Python?

S0ulA55a551n · 02 December 2021, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

And finally, did I mention that Python is crap? Any language that forces you to use a specific number of tabs in the source code is not worthy of my time.

This has always been my pet peeve with it as well

jotd · 02 December 2021, 23:11

redblad my tools are designed to run on windows or linux.

I use python because it's very powerful & quick to develop/debug, and I'm now quite an expert in that language.

My opinion is that the amiga (classic) has became a target machine. Running stuff natively to do productivity things besides booting games isn't my cup of tea nowadays.

Locutus · 05 December 2021, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyromania

I’ll be waiting for Python 6 with Quantum Computer extensions,

Already doable on Python3 ;-) -> https://qiskit.org/

I'd be most amused if i could run my quantum circuits from a Amiga 1200

jotd · 05 December 2021, 13:23

python 4 is already very unlikely. They're not going to break compatibility once again after the 2 to 3 fiasco.

Thomas Richter · 05 December 2021, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Being 1st in that ranking sounds impressive until you see that it only has 11.77%, and Java is a close 3rd with 10.72% (suspiciously accurate percentages there...).

The reason why python is so popular nowadays is because it is the basis for all the neural-network/deep learning research. Python is the language that drives tensorflow and pytorch, the popular frameworks for neural network/deep learning designs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

I think Python is crap, and if a future Amiga OS switches to then it will be crap too. We need AREXX anyway for existing apps, so why replace it?

Python is a nice orthogonal scripting language with great library support. Unlike ARexx, which is not quite that orthonogal. However, ARexx has wide support in AmigaOs and its applications, so it does not make much sense to replace it on 68K.

I'm not sure whether python would be slower or faster than ARexx. The ARexx interpreter in AmigaOs is written in assembly (unfortunately) and quite optimized (to a degree that it is not very maintainable).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

And finally, did I mention that Python is crap? Any language that forces you to use a specific number of tabs in the source code is not worthy of my time.

I disagree - this fixes the style of the source code and makes them very readable. It sounds a bit "excentric" to design a language this way, but it certainly has its merrits.

jotd · 05 December 2021, 15:08

I don't use any deep learning stuff and use python for all the rest (text parsing, automation, compilation/production/version control wrapping)

and of course, most tools to build amiga binary assets for my games (sound & graphics)

But I would never have the idea to use it on the amiga...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Python errors from fs-uae-launcher [Solved]	mocham	support.FS-UAE	8	01 November 2012 19:54
Monty Python's Flying Circus	sareks	support.Games	8	10 March 2008 12:23
Python 1 joystick	ladybird	Retrogaming General Discussion	3	08 August 2007 15:06
Python Joysticks ?	blade002	MarketPlace	11	18 June 2006 04:48
Monty Python	Bueller	request.Demos	2	12 October 2005 16:39

30 November 2021, 16:02	#101
AlfaRomeo A1200 040 SAM440EP 667 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lisbon / Portugal Posts: 873	According to the TIOBE index, Python is now 1st in the programming languages ranking and probably will stay near that place in the future. Rexx don't even appear in the top 50. As almost all actual Amiga users do have real hardware accelerated Amigas or emulators installed in full powered machines, I think all will win if AmigaOS devlopers/distributers replace ARexx by Python 3. What do you all think about that?

30 November 2021, 16:18	#102
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,162	I think that porting Python 3 for classic amigas is a challenge That would be cool, but also maybe too heavy/slow for the machine.

30 November 2021, 17:02	#103
AlfaRomeo A1200 040 SAM440EP 667 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lisbon / Portugal Posts: 873	Guillaume Roguez already ported Python 2.7 and 3 to MorphOS, so porting it for AmigaOS is a halfway job. The weakest accelerated boards in the market are 68030's, maybe they are enough for the task. Today ARexx in AOS is a waste because it´s a half-dead language, there are no books or visible developing in Rexx and in the future will be worse.

30 November 2021, 17:29	#105
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,334	Replacing ARexx with Python was the approach taken by OS4, though it also includes the full ARexx interpreter. Essentially, it provides access to ARexx ports from Python. A similar approach could surely be done for OS3, but I do have to wonder why? Yes, ARexx isn't in the top 50 programming languages, but the Amiga isn't in the top 50 computer brands either. ARexx also works just fine on a 68000, and given that OS 3.1.4 and 3.2 took a step back in terms of CPU requirements from the 68020 required for OS 3.9, it doesn't seem like a great idea to suddenly require an accelerator for a core part of the OS. Also, 68030s are most certainly not the "weakest" accelerator on the market - bear in mind that the ACA 500+ is simply a faster 68000, and that many people opt for fast-RAM only boards. By all means, develop a Python bridge that allows Python scripts to use ARexx ports and commands, and upload it to Aminet. That will let anyone who wants to, to use Python in place of ARexx. But suddenly upping the hardware requirements of the OS to use a different scripting language because it's popular seems a bit pointless.

30 November 2021, 17:33	#106
Lord Aga MI clan prevails Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 1,443	Python 3 is for chumps anyway. We'll wait for Python 4!

30 November 2021, 19:09	#107
stevelord Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: UK Posts: 540	Replace. No,, that's not gonna happen. Release Python 3? Ehhh maybe. Python 2.4 on an 060/50 is fairly slow anyway. It makes sense on PPC but I don't see it working well on non-virtualised 68k. That's not to say a port wouldn't be welcome if you wanted to make one.

30 November 2021, 22:32	#111
fxgogo Also known as GarethQ Join Date: May 2019 Location: Twickenham / U.K. Posts: 715	Ha, ha ha, I love your responses Bruce.

30 November 2021, 22:50	#112
coldacid WinUAE 4000/40, V4SA Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: East of Oshawa Posts: 538	Well, he's not wrong.

02 December 2021, 22:50	#113
redblade Zone Friend Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Middle Earth Age: 40 Posts: 2,127	@jotd: Your Amiga tools that you code in Python, Is it possible to code them in ARexx or is it because of the CPU speed of your PC/MAC you use Python?

02 December 2021, 23:11	#115
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,162	redblad my tools are designed to run on windows or linux. I use python because it's very powerful & quick to develop/debug, and I'm now quite an expert in that language. My opinion is that the amiga (classic) has became a target machine. Running stuff natively to do productivity things besides booting games isn't my cup of tea nowadays.

05 December 2021, 13:23	#117
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,162	python 4 is already very unlikely. They're not going to break compatibility once again after the 2 to 3 fiasco.

05 December 2021, 15:08	#119
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,162	I don't use any deep learning stuff and use python for all the rest (text parsing, automation, compilation/production/version control wrapping) and of course, most tools to build amiga binary assets for my games (sound & graphics) But I would never have the idea to use it on the amiga...

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)