An absurd suggestion...

[Kepler]

Yes, I completely understand that what I am about to mention is borderline preposterous.. but this is a forum that affords us that very luxury...so I will communicate my absurdity to the world!

Why not start manufacturing complete Amiga 3000s and 4000s once again?!

My rationale: Over the last 5 years, the price of the aforementioned have increased by approximately 50% each year as observed on the ubiquitous auction site, to the point that the price has now eclipsed £3000.

Yet people are still willing to pay for them!

For how long can that be sustained - who knows..? Would the price fall, if all of a sudden, hundreds of new A3000s and 4000s appeared? According to the market forces of supply and demand - a resounding yes! But people still want to buy them? I suspect so.

What are your thoughts?!

[lesta_smsc]

The issue isn't the motherboards but custom chips which could be replaced by FPGA equivalent but this is not readily apparent.

The cases is less of an issue and @simon_m74 is well versed in aspect.

[Amiga600]

I do not think its currently possible, as I assume while Mike/AmigaCorp has *some* Amiga rights, he does not have enough to produce a proper Amiga yet

This is why the A500 Mini is marketed as a "Games machine" and only has a launcher with the Games preinstalled, as opposed to being a proper Amiga with a Kickstart Insert Disk screen

I assume only Mike/AmigaCorp/Cloanto only have the rights to the Kickstart ROMS and not the rights to reproduce the Amiga hardware which would be required
(please correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that is the case at this point in time)

The rights to the Amiga are still sadly spread far and wide, and will take time to reaquire, if they ever can be, since some companies who still hold them are keeping a firm hold, for various reasons, which will prevent a proper Amiga ever being created

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Amiga600

I assume only Mike/AmigaCorp/Cloanto only have the rights to the Kickstart ROMS and not the rights to reproduce the Amiga hardware which would be required
(please correct me if I am wrong, but I assume that is the case at this point in time)

It's complicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga,_Inc.

On 1 February 2019, Amiga Inc. transferred all its IP (including Amiga trademarks and remaining copyrights) to C-A Acquisition Corp., owned by Mike Battilana (director of Cloanto, company behind the Amiga Forever emulation package), later renamed to Amiga Corporation.

I guess Amiga Corporation now has the rights to make the hardware (if available). About the OS... see the second and third paragraph of the Wiki article.

[Matt_H]

We're actually fairly close to this being possible. Reverse-engineered (and improved) motherboards exist for both the 3000 and 4000. I think the keyboards have been fully re-implemented as well, or are darn close.

The primary issue is a shortage of Amiga custom chips - these just don't exist in stockpiles large enough to do a full production run of completed boards. FPGA replacements exist for some but not all of the individual chips, so that work needs to get finished and made available first.

The second issue is the cases. Recreating the original cases is a whole different source of time and expense. There's metal tooling and creating molds for the plastic bits that needs to be done. I think 3D-printable models exist for all/most of the plastic components, but 3D printing technology is not yet refined enough to make printed components a 100% match to the original vacuum-formed ones.

So, I think this will be possible in a few more years, but whether it can come in at under the price of what original machines are selling for is another question.


(Personally, what I'd like to see is a 3000+/AA3000 motherboard - with Zorro slots - adapted to a standard modern case with a replacement 3000T-styled front fascia. )

[Kepler]

Aside from the difficulties of acquiring the individual licenses, the complexities of producing the custom chips and the costs involved in manufacturing the entire machine...what level of demand do you think exists for a brand new Amiga 3000/4000 whose longevity, capabilities and limitations are now known as opposed to when they were first released 30 years ago?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Kepler

Yes, I completely understand that what I am about to mention is borderline preposterous.. but this is a forum that affords us that very luxury...so I will communicate my absurdity to the world!

Why not start manufacturing complete Amiga 3000s and 4000s once again?!

My rationale: Over the last 5 years, the price of the aforementioned have increased by approximately 50% each year as observed on the ubiquitous auction site, to the point that the price has now eclipsed £3000.

Yet people are still willing to pay for them!

For how long can that be sustained - who knows..? Would the price fall, if all of a sudden, hundreds of new A3000s and 4000s appeared? According to the market forces of supply and demand - a resounding yes! But people still want to buy them? I suspect so.

What are your thoughts?!

producing the original system with original chips will be difficult as others already mentioned. Even original and tested 68k processors are rare, most are old chips from china. A solution based on FPGA in a original looking case are more realistic. But I do not know how much it would cost and if the market is really big enough

[walkero]

A solution based on FPGA in a original looking case are more realistic. But I do not know how much it would cost and if the market is really big enough

But these already exist and are the Mister and the Checkmate case. So, if someone would like to build something like that, they are available.

[nogginthenog]

Originally Posted by Kepler

Why not start manufacturing complete Amiga 3000s and 4000s once again?!

My rationale: Over the last 5 years, the price of the aforementioned have increased by approximately 50% each year as observed on the ubiquitous auction site, to the point that the price has now eclipsed £3000.

Like this? Notice the battery leakage.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256142556109

[alexh]

It's extremely unlikely you could manufacture a full A3000/A4000 BELOW their current 2nd hand market value of £3000+.

First you've got the custom chip supply issue and 2nd the plastics.

All the original CBM injection molds for the plastic (front facia, keyboard housing) are gone so you'd have to re-design and remake them. The NRE would be incredible.

When you add in that lots of potential owners already have Amiga 3000s and 4000s.

It's not economically viable which is why no-one has done it so far.

[saimon69]

Reverse engineering of the design need to be done anyway for preservation or restore - see 3D printing of specific parts like the front of an A1000 in this video i did stumble yesterday:
[ Show youtube player ]

So, while the full replacement of an Amiga might be still not viable but having all blueprints for parts or Verilog for individual chips to be FPGAed (either to create a full Amiga on a chip or for individual replacements) is in my opinion a necessity and can be done with separate projects that COULD be used to have a full machine reconstructed too; for chassis keep in mind that 3D printers are improving and printing of large parts might become affordabe soon; metal parts are of course a different game but CNC tooling is getting cheaper too

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by alexh

It's extremely unlikely you could manufacture a full A3000/A4000 BELOW their current 2nd hand market value of £3000+.

First you've got the custom chip supply issue and 2nd the plastics.

All the original CBM injection molds for the plastic (front facia, keyboard housing) are gone so you'd have to re-design and remake them. The NRE would be incredible.

When you add in that lots of potential owners already have Amiga 3000s and 4000s.

It's not economically viable which is why no-one has done it so far.

I'm sure that this would be economically viable. Just considers how many money some kickstarted with case, keycaps or just a mouse.
The problem is the copyright.

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

producing the original system with original chips will be difficult as others already mentioned. Even original and tested 68k processors are rare, most are old chips from china. A solution based on FPGA in a original looking case are more realistic. But I do not know how much it would cost and if the market is really big enough

This is not only about original chipset - large part of TTL's used for motherboard glue logic is also EOL...
Original chipset and CPU can be reverse engineered - there is at least few pro companies doing decapsulation and converting layout to schematics so instead FPGA even ASIC (single ASIC with integrated all logic may reduce cost) can be done but it will require money - probably without few millions $ this is no go.

[Kepler]

A few million dollars to resurrect a "legend" doesn't seem to be a massive amount of money...

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Kepler

A few million dollars to resurrect a "legend" doesn't seem to be a massive amount of money...

I'll just look down the back of the sofa ...

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Kepler

My rationale: Over the last 5 years, the price of the aforementioned have increased by approximately 50% each year as observed on the ubiquitous auction site, to the point that the price has now eclipsed £3000.

Yet people are still willing to pay for them!

A few people are willing to pay for them. The question is why? I think it's a combination of:-

1. They were always expensive. In 1991 I bought a stock 25MHz A3000 for NZ$7200. That's equivalent to over NZ$15000 today. £3000 is still less than half what my A3000 cost back when I had less 'disposable' income than I do today. People are more inclined to accept a high price when high prices are 'normal'.

2. Reputation. The A3000 and A4000 were both very desirable machines back in the day, and still are for Amiga fans. Whether they deserve it is another matter, but where desires are concerned perception is more important than reality.

3. Nostalgia. You want one because you had one or wanted to have one. You're getting older and the machines are getting rarer. Collectors are hoarding them, so If you don't buy it now you may never get another chance!

4. Originality. Sure you can get the same or even better performance out of a Vampire or PiStorm, or just run an emulator on a modern PC - but it's not the same. The actual technology from 30 years ago is more valuable because it's that old (and still working). It's a piece of history just like that 3000 year old bronze sword they dug up in Germany a few weeks ago.

5. The technology itself is worth learning, and fixing and improving, and owning and caressing - just like it was when new. Modern computers aren't like that. A modern PC is just an appliance - soon to be come worthless ewaste.

So now the questions you have to find answers for are:-

a. Are there enough people willing to buy a reproduction to justify the production costs? (that's all costs, not just the hardware itself).

b. Will you really enjoy doing it, or it will it become a millstone around your neck due to the small number of whingers who inevitably will try to make your life hell?

I don't think the market is big enough to justify reproducing A3000s or A4000s. Collectors and nostalgia freaks won't be that interested in something that isn't 'original', and the rest of us have other solutions that are cheaper and/or more powerful. An original A500 is much more affordable, just as much fun, and has even more nostalgia value.

Personally I would rather see a 'new' Amiga model being produced that doesn't reproduce the warts of the A3000 and A4000 - a design that one of us might might have created back in the day if we had the opportunity.

However, rather than trying to do the whole thing at once, I think we should just make motherboards and cases etc. that can be 'mixed and matched' to other Amiga hardware both old and new, so anyone can create their 'dream machine' without having to put up with stuff they don't want.

'Fungability' is another important factor. Too many designs died because they relied on some part that became unavailable (including 'modern' FPGAs etc.), or was too hard to produce at a reasonable price. The original designers and manufacturers may lose interest for one reason or another, then others will have to pick up the ball. You want to make that easy for them.

Another issue is licensing. Maybe you can't put an Amiga logo on the product - no big deal you just leave a blank spot for that. Somebody might claim copyright on the A3000 or A4000 motherboard layouts, but that doesn't bother you because your design is different. A circuit diagram is IP, the circuit itself is not. So being different has two advantages, no IP issues and a better product!

Finally the entire thing should be open source with absolutely no restrictions - including allowing 'scalpers' to make as much money out of it as they can without attribution. That's how the PC took over the market back in the 90's. In our tiny market popularity is more important than anything else (if you want the project to be a success). OTOH you may want to keep control of the project for 'reasons'. That's your right of course, but don't be surprised if it doesn't attract the same interest.

[grelbfarlk]

If you had a few million to spend, you could do a lot better.
Just make a common motherboard that is already working like Hese's A4000TX.
Since you don't have to waste your money on a case and a keyboard and all of that, you could spend your development dollars on actually widening buses and replacing custom chips.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Karlos

I'll just look down the back of the sofa ...

it would be something for a kickstarter. But I doubt there is enough people willing to pay for it because very propably it would be not cheap. There are always some "crazy" people but such a project would require some money (f.e. to produce the case) so I am unsure if it would be financable.

[Karlos]

I would rather have an FPGA type solution for emulating the legacy hardware, with some expanded capabilities. Add to that something like the PiStorm for the CPU, RTG and general connectivity.

All standalone but preferably installable in a 1200 style wedge case.

[chip]

Why not produce complete Amiga 500 once again ?