You betray the Amiga by playing DOOM! - Page 11

Raid27 · 04 September 2021, 16:14

For me it wasn't Doom that made me switch to PC but X-wing.
I remember reading the Amiga magazines every month hoping to see it released on Amiga but it never happened.

SquawkBox · 04 September 2021, 17:10

OMG, I just betrayed the Amiga by placing an *Atari* sticker on the removable front panel of the portable CRT TV I use with my A500

:

In case you missed it, this is what gave me the desire to do so :
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...0&postcount=60
Some random consumer grade portable TV embellished with an Activision logo of sorts forged by the manufacturer apparently. A bold thing to do, I told myself!

Nishicorn · 25 September 2021, 12:13

No one killed Amiga. Amiga is still alive, and can still be used for all kinds of fun and creativity, like lores graphics, for example. For some reason, using a real Amiga feels so much smoother and 'just right' compared to emulation, with same software, setup, the most optimal mouse settings, etc. I can't figure out, why, because I sure didn't expect it.

If Amiga was dead, I couldn't have experienced all this.

I am also GLAD Commodore didn't bring AGA in 1989. Amiga 500 was barely gathering speed - I got my first Amiga way into the 1990s, and it was a wonderful Amiga 500, of which I have PRECIOUS, wonderful memories.

Too many computers and versions would also have spoiled everything, no game would work with all of them, and no game maker would've made games for all configurations. Amiga wasn't like PC, where you just needed a driver to get a game working, the game that's made for AGA, doesn't work in Amiga 500.

It's a completely different philosophy and architecture compared to a PC. Few Amiga 500 owners had 2 or more MB of memory that an AGA game might require.

On the PC side, you could have an old system with a greyscale Hercules monitor, and with the right driver, a game made for a VGA PC would work. The only difference besides graphics (and sound) would be our machine's CPU speed - a game might play too slow or too fast, depending on your system, but it would generally work.

A new machine every 3 years would mean no programmer would have learned the best tricks and optimal way to program for a machine. Amiga 500 certainly saw many 'miracles' in the demo and game world because it lived for so long. It's a testament to how far ahead of its time Amiga was, that Amiga 500 was able to survive for so long.

I agree a little bit that AGA machines could've been brought slightly earlier, but it wouldn't have been too late if the AGA machines were a bit beefier and more interesting (instead of a relatively lackluster improvement, despite the 24-bit palette and 18-bit and 8-bit screenmodes that Amiga had needed for years by then).

If AGA machines had been cheaper, but boasted great improvements instead of 'adequate ones' - even the graphics were BARELY better than VGA, and lost to SVGA very quickly.

However, same sound chip, same planar system - no chunky - slow CPU as default (at least 030 or 040 should've been stock), only chip memory in vanilla machine (should've had some FAST memory anyway), 2 MB chip memory limitation (should've been 'unlimited' or something), etc.

If it had 8 or 16 channels, maybe some kind of FM synth or something for added interest, a proper chunky system, maybe super low resolutions on a TV (why can C64 output 160x200 on TV but Amiga can't do 160x240 on TV - only on a TFT or multiscan monitor?) for super fast 3D stuff..

I think a visionary could have done a lot - Amiga 1200 wasn't as revolutionary and visionary a computer as Amiga 1000 and even 500 were in their heyday or at least in the beginning. AGA should've been able to scroll bigger graphics, faster and smoother, had bigger sprites, a proper amount (96 maybe) with no palette restrictions, or maybe 256-color ones, and enough power to move them all simultaneously faster and smoother than Neo-Geo can.

Maybe some kind of 640x256 default TV resolution with enough power to back it up would've been a nice boost for games, I don't know.

There was nothing 'that much better than VGA PC' to lure in programmers, game and demo makers, etc. (even though AGA saw some wonderful demos and nice games, too) at least initially.

Of course a souped-up AGA Amiga can be a real marvel to behold, but every AGA Amiga should've been that miracle. Vanilla A1200 is barely an improvement over A500, and it's not even 100% compatible. It should've been -at-least- as compatible as C128 was with C64.

Commodore made the same mistake with A1200 as they made with C128, but not in as big a scale; when you make something compatible with a previous computer, make sure it ALSO has its own, much superior qualities that people want to buy it for, not just the compatibility with 'slight improvement'.

With C128, the 'improvement', the C128 side just wasn't anything too interesting. Almost nothing instantly usable or exciting, not even more colors or sound channels.

A1200 at least had more colors, faster CPU and more memory, but the problem was, it wasn't FAST ENOUGH a CPU (many people had 486s with SVGA cards back then, and even the original AdLib had 9 channels of live synth sound), 2 MB wasn't ENOUGH memory expansion, especially when without FAST RAM, it slowed down or at least didn't let the vanilla Amiga 1200 be as fast as it would otherwise have been. It's like they were stingy in giving the Amiga new features, and I can't understand that.

The absolute murder was the same sound chip, nothing like a DSP, no more channels, no synth that would've made it a 'quirky' machine that many nerds would've loved exploring the sound world of. If you can envision something like SID chip with 8 channels and a filter for each channel, you get the drift. Then you could have a 16-bit sample capabilities in addition to that, and you'd have a really interesting soundworld.

Doom didn't really kill Amiga - if anything, it gave a BOOST to Amiga scene, a nice challenge, something to shoot for, a benchmark to use to test things against, and an opportunity to show that Amiga can do that, too.

Without Doom, Alien Breed 3D would probably never have existed, so we have to THANK Doom, not insult it, and there's nothing treacherous in playing Doom on the Amiga, on the contrary, it proves that Amiga can do it, too!

Also, there's more 'feeling' or 'atmosphere' in playing things on the Amiga, which is why all those PC Classics I played on the old '060 and Shapeshifter felt so precious to play back in the day. Playing a 256-color Monkey Island 2:LeChuck's Revenge and Day of the Tentacle, Alone in the Dark, Prince of Persia (which is fast even in the higher-res mode).. using Photoshop on the Amiga.. and playing Mac-Doom on the Amiga that run smooothly long before they converted it for the Amiga - to me, that's just a WIN for Amiga.

I don't see how anyone can just SPIN things in that kind of a weird illogical way. Being able to play Doom on the Amiga probably KEPT AMIGA ALIVE longer, if you really want to think it's dead.

But it isn't.

Nishicorn · 25 September 2021, 12:16

Besides, all this 'betrayal' talk is ridiculous.

I have Commodore, Atari, Sega and Nintend? machines, computers, systems and consoles right next to each other, together with a DOS PC and several Windows laptops. They all look happy and harmonious being able to join together to form a beautiful computing orchestra, why would I make them compete against each other, when they complement each other so beautifully_

Only stupid people fight about things when they could rather just make those things co-operate. I love all my different machines, and I would never want to put them to compete against each other. Some games are simply better on the other system, other games on something else. I love playing Orc Attack on the Atari, but Spy Hunter is better on the C64. It's so much fun to be able to play all versions of all games on both.

I pity those people that pit computers and systems against each other instead of enjoying all.. they don't know what they're missing.

Romanujan · 25 September 2021, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

What really killed killed the Amiga was cheapskate users. They destroyed the software market by stealing pirating games, and destroyed the hardware market by refusing to upgrade. But most of them were kids so it's understandable - they didn't have the money. Adults did, but they bought PCs because it was the business standard so they could justify the outlay (couldn't spend that much on a 'games machine'!).

Piracy in a PC world was as common, as on the Amiga.

As a kid I wanted to have an A1200 with a HDD and an accelerator card. But when I finally got the money, I could get a 100 MHz PC for less. The choice was obvious.

Minuous · 25 September 2021, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

the game that's made for AGA, doesn't work in Amiga 500.

The same applies for eg. running EGA games on a CGA system, or VGA games on an EGA system.

Quote:

It should've been -at-least- as compatible as C128 was with C64.

It is, for properly-written programs. If coders completely ignore the guidelines and don't support any machine other than the one they developed the game on, what do you expect? It is impossible to move the platform forward without losing compatibility with badly-written programs. That's the whole point of the guidelines in the first place. Guidelines which some coders are still ignoring today, with the unsurprising result that their games are not compatible with most Amigas.

rare_j · 25 September 2021, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

Besides, all this 'betrayal' talk is ridiculous.

The topic starter is recognised as a troll, the whole thing was a wind-up.

Foebane · 25 September 2021, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minuous

The same applies for eg. running EGA games on a CGA system, or VGA games on an EGA system.

It is, for properly-written programs. If coders completely ignore the guidelines and don't support any machine other than the one they developed the game on, what do you expect? It is impossible to move the platform forward without losing compatibility with badly-written programs. That's the whole point of the guidelines in the first place. Guidelines which some coders are still ignoring today, with the unsurprising result that their games are not compatible with most Amigas.

I've heard the term "backwards compatible" many times. I don't think I've ever heard the term "forwards compatible", however.

James · 25 September 2021, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

I've heard the term "backwards compatible" many times. I don't think I've ever heard the term "forwards compatible", however.

You can betray the Amiga by playing Forwards Compatible too.

https://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/back2forwards.html

04 September 2021, 17:10	#202
SquawkBox Speedbump gimme goosebump Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: France Age: 50 Posts: 773	OMG, I just betrayed the Amiga by placing an Atari sticker on the removable front panel of the portable CRT TV I use with my A500 : In case you missed it, this is what gave me the desire to do so : http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...0&postcount=60 Some random consumer grade portable TV embellished with an Activision logo of sorts forged by the manufacturer apparently. A bold thing to do, I told myself! Last edited by SquawkBox; 05 September 2021 at 01:42.

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04 September 2021, 16:14	#201
Raid27 I have a joystick Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Age: 45 Posts: 179	For me it wasn't Doom that made me switch to PC but X-wing. I remember reading the Amiga magazines every month hoping to see it released on Amiga but it never happened.

25 September 2021, 12:13	#203
Nishicorn Registered User Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Existence Posts: 102	No one killed Amiga. Amiga is still alive, and can still be used for all kinds of fun and creativity, like lores graphics, for example. For some reason, using a real Amiga feels so much smoother and 'just right' compared to emulation, with same software, setup, the most optimal mouse settings, etc. I can't figure out, why, because I sure didn't expect it. If Amiga was dead, I couldn't have experienced all this. I am also GLAD Commodore didn't bring AGA in 1989. Amiga 500 was barely gathering speed - I got my first Amiga way into the 1990s, and it was a wonderful Amiga 500, of which I have PRECIOUS, wonderful memories. Too many computers and versions would also have spoiled everything, no game would work with all of them, and no game maker would've made games for all configurations. Amiga wasn't like PC, where you just needed a driver to get a game working, the game that's made for AGA, doesn't work in Amiga 500. It's a completely different philosophy and architecture compared to a PC. Few Amiga 500 owners had 2 or more MB of memory that an AGA game might require. On the PC side, you could have an old system with a greyscale Hercules monitor, and with the right driver, a game made for a VGA PC would work. The only difference besides graphics (and sound) would be our machine's CPU speed - a game might play too slow or too fast, depending on your system, but it would generally work. A new machine every 3 years would mean no programmer would have learned the best tricks and optimal way to program for a machine. Amiga 500 certainly saw many 'miracles' in the demo and game world because it lived for so long. It's a testament to how far ahead of its time Amiga was, that Amiga 500 was able to survive for so long. I agree a little bit that AGA machines could've been brought slightly earlier, but it wouldn't have been too late if the AGA machines were a bit beefier and more interesting (instead of a relatively lackluster improvement, despite the 24-bit palette and 18-bit and 8-bit screenmodes that Amiga had needed for years by then). If AGA machines had been cheaper, but boasted great improvements instead of 'adequate ones' - even the graphics were BARELY better than VGA, and lost to SVGA very quickly. However, same sound chip, same planar system - no chunky - slow CPU as default (at least 030 or 040 should've been stock), only chip memory in vanilla machine (should've had some FAST memory anyway), 2 MB chip memory limitation (should've been 'unlimited' or something), etc. If it had 8 or 16 channels, maybe some kind of FM synth or something for added interest, a proper chunky system, maybe super low resolutions on a TV (why can C64 output 160x200 on TV but Amiga can't do 160x240 on TV - only on a TFT or multiscan monitor?) for super fast 3D stuff.. I think a visionary could have done a lot - Amiga 1200 wasn't as revolutionary and visionary a computer as Amiga 1000 and even 500 were in their heyday or at least in the beginning. AGA should've been able to scroll bigger graphics, faster and smoother, had bigger sprites, a proper amount (96 maybe) with no palette restrictions, or maybe 256-color ones, and enough power to move them all simultaneously faster and smoother than Neo-Geo can. Maybe some kind of 640x256 default TV resolution with enough power to back it up would've been a nice boost for games, I don't know. There was nothing 'that much better than VGA PC' to lure in programmers, game and demo makers, etc. (even though AGA saw some wonderful demos and nice games, too) at least initially. Of course a souped-up AGA Amiga can be a real marvel to behold, but every AGA Amiga should've been that miracle. Vanilla A1200 is barely an improvement over A500, and it's not even 100% compatible. It should've been -at-least- as compatible as C128 was with C64. Commodore made the same mistake with A1200 as they made with C128, but not in as big a scale; when you make something compatible with a previous computer, make sure it ALSO has its own, much superior qualities that people want to buy it for, not just the compatibility with 'slight improvement'. With C128, the 'improvement', the C128 side just wasn't anything too interesting. Almost nothing instantly usable or exciting, not even more colors or sound channels. A1200 at least had more colors, faster CPU and more memory, but the problem was, it wasn't FAST ENOUGH a CPU (many people had 486s with SVGA cards back then, and even the original AdLib had 9 channels of live synth sound), 2 MB wasn't ENOUGH memory expansion, especially when without FAST RAM, it slowed down or at least didn't let the vanilla Amiga 1200 be as fast as it would otherwise have been. It's like they were stingy in giving the Amiga new features, and I can't understand that. The absolute murder was the same sound chip, nothing like a DSP, no more channels, no synth that would've made it a 'quirky' machine that many nerds would've loved exploring the sound world of. If you can envision something like SID chip with 8 channels and a filter for each channel, you get the drift. Then you could have a 16-bit sample capabilities in addition to that, and you'd have a really interesting soundworld. Doom didn't really kill Amiga - if anything, it gave a BOOST to Amiga scene, a nice challenge, something to shoot for, a benchmark to use to test things against, and an opportunity to show that Amiga can do that, too. Without Doom, Alien Breed 3D would probably never have existed, so we have to THANK Doom, not insult it, and there's nothing treacherous in playing Doom on the Amiga, on the contrary, it proves that Amiga can do it, too! Also, there's more 'feeling' or 'atmosphere' in playing things on the Amiga, which is why all those PC Classics I played on the old '060 and Shapeshifter felt so precious to play back in the day. Playing a 256-color Monkey Island 2:LeChuck's Revenge and Day of the Tentacle, Alone in the Dark, Prince of Persia (which is fast even in the higher-res mode).. using Photoshop on the Amiga.. and playing Mac-Doom on the Amiga that run smooothly long before they converted it for the Amiga - to me, that's just a WIN for Amiga. I don't see how anyone can just SPIN things in that kind of a weird illogical way. Being able to play Doom on the Amiga probably KEPT AMIGA ALIVE longer, if you really want to think it's dead. But it isn't.

25 September 2021, 12:16	#204
Nishicorn Registered User Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Existence Posts: 102	Besides, all this 'betrayal' talk is ridiculous. I have Commodore, Atari, Sega and Nintend? machines, computers, systems and consoles right next to each other, together with a DOS PC and several Windows laptops. They all look happy and harmonious being able to join together to form a beautiful computing orchestra, why would I make them compete against each other, when they complement each other so beautifully_ Only stupid people fight about things when they could rather just make those things co-operate. I love all my different machines, and I would never want to put them to compete against each other. Some games are simply better on the other system, other games on something else. I love playing Orc Attack on the Atari, but Spy Hunter is better on the C64. It's so much fun to be able to play all versions of all games on both. I pity those people that pit computers and systems against each other instead of enjoying all.. they don't know what they're missing.

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