A4000 CompactFlash IDE Upgrades. Worth it?

stevelord · 13 May 2019, 11:47

Hi,

I'm replacing a 10gb SCSI drive in an A4000 with a 256Gb CompactFlash card and an IDE-CF adapter.

As I understand it the A4000's max throughput is 3.6MB (roughly 28.8Mbit) while the CF card's max throughput is around 150/130Mbps thanks to UDMA7.

At the moment drive speed isn't an issue, but I'm planning to get a 16-bit soundcard and do some fairly heavy (for an Amiga) audio work.

I've looked at the FASTATA as an option, but this seems a bit overkill for a CF card. I've also read that people have had trouble booting from it with certain configurations.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting the most from an IDE adapter? I'd like to be able to write DVD images at some point, too. I have an IDE DVD-RW.

Steve

Locutus · 13 May 2019, 12:20

Just plain throughput isn't the only item to worry about.

You mention a 10GB SCSI drive, what controller do you have that attached to?

IDE on a A4000 (same for FastATA) is all PIO, so the CPU has to do all the work, resulting to high CPU load when you really push it.

SCSI can be DMA on Amiga, resulting in far lower CPU use, for Audio work this might be preferable.

Either way, modern storage media (CF/SD cards connected to either IDE or SCSI using adapters) will be far faster then any Amiga host controller.

stevelord · 16 May 2019, 01:56

Ok, I've pulled the lid off and had a poke around. It's erm... an interesting place, a little... custom...

Turns out the 10Gb drive isn't SCSI, it's IDE. It's just using SCSI.device off the main A4000 IDE connector. I guess if I want to go SCSI -> CF I'd need a Z3 SCSI card for such shenanigans.

Does anyone have any meaningful stats about PIO overheads on a 68040 or 68060?

Jope · 16 May 2019, 07:48

Just go IDE -> CF in this case. You don't have a DMA SCSI system currently, so it will not be a downgrade for you.

S0ulA55a551n · 16 May 2019, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

Just go IDE -> CF in this case. You don't have a DMA SCSI system currently, so it will not be a downgrade for you.

Always been impressed with my FastATA, not cheap but removes most of the CPU overhead

Jope · 16 May 2019, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by S0ulA55a551n

Always been impressed with my FastATA, not cheap but removes most of the CPU overhead

Not DMA either, but faster than the onboard IDE.

hooverphonique · 16 May 2019, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevelord

Turns out the 10Gb drive isn't SCSI, it's IDE. It's just using SCSI.device off the main A4000 IDE connector.

Yes, Commodore named their IDE device "scsi.device" across the board, presumably for "compatibility" reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevelord

Does anyone have any meaningful stats about PIO overheads on a 68040 or 68060?

Btw, there are mods for improving speed of the onboard IDE (look for e.g. "A4000 PIO2 mod"), but it requires replacing the 2 IDE PAL chips.

Daedalus · 16 May 2019, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hooverphonique

Yes, Commodore named their IDE device "scsi.device" across the board, presumably for "compatibility" reasons.

It also accepts SCSI commands and behaves like other SCSI devices, so the name kinda makes sense from that perspective.

nogginthenog · 16 May 2019, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

Just go IDE -> CF in this case. You don't have a DMA SCSI system currently, so it will not be a downgrade for you.

The other alternative is IDE -> mSATA

See this thread: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=83491

My adapter mounts in a zorro slot but I can't see it for sale anymore:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...7&postcount=18

stevelord · 17 May 2019, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nogginthenog

The other alternative is IDE -> mSATA

See this thread: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=83491

My adapter mounts in a zorro slot but I can't see it for sale anymore:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...7&postcount=18

That's insanely cool, and I now wish I'd done that instead. The Delock compact flash adaptor I got from Vesalia doesn't seem to want to play ball with the A4000's internal IDE. Nothing appears in the boot menu and I can't seem to get very far booting.

I've messed around with jumpers but no dice, the DVD-Writer's in slave configuration but between this and the A3660 I'm trying to get up and running, I'm not doing well!

theq · 17 May 2019, 20:09

What CF card are you using?

stevelord · 17 May 2019, 20:24

A 4Gb Indmem card that came with the adapter from Vesalia.de. I've prepped it in WinUAE, formatted, installed ClassicWB3.9, but nothing appears as a drive in the pre-boot menu.

theq · 17 May 2019, 20:50

Did you try without the slave configuration too, as in just the CF card alone?

stevelord · 17 May 2019, 21:54

Yes. It hangs for a while, presumably trying to enumerate IDE, then if I go to the early startup control I can only see DF0.

stevelord · 18 May 2019, 16:37

Some extra cables arrived this morning and I went through the jumper dance again.

Setting JP1 to External/44-pin IDE and using a molex to 4-pin floppy adapter on the side made it spring into life.

This has been pretty frustrating, as the IDE is 40-pin, and the 40-pin setting doesn't work. Also the supplied IDE cable has a filled in central pin on each connector, meaning I can't actually use it in the Amiga 4000. I expected better of Vesalia tbh.

In case anyone has a similar Delock 91624 IDE-CF converter problem and stumbles across this thread, my (working) jumper settings are:

JP1: 1-2
JP2: 1-2
JP3: 1-2

theq · 18 May 2019, 17:10

Great you figured it out

nogginthenog · 19 May 2019, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevelord

Also the supplied IDE cable has a filled in central pin on each connector, meaning I can't actually use it in the Amiga 4000. I expected better of Vesalia tbh.

In the past I've solved this by heating up a pin and inserting it into the filled in section.

stevelord · 21 May 2019, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by nogginthenog

In the past I've solved this by heating up a pin and inserting it into the filled in section.

Ouch!

Ok, I've got it up and running with a 256Gb CF card now. This is incredible.

I have a full WHDLoad, TOSEC apps collection, Fred Fish, Assassins, LSD Legal Tools, an entire Aminet mirror, UneXoticA and the complete Modland FTP.

What a time to be alive!

trixster · 21 May 2019, 13:07

Now make a backup image of your cf card using something like win32diskimager before the card become corrupted and you lose the lot

stevelord · 21 May 2019, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by trixster

Now make a backup image of your cf card using something like win32diskimager before the card become corrupted and you lose the lot

Is that something that happens often? I was planning on doing semi-regular backups while I'm recovering files from old disks, then sorting something out via SMBFS once I have my ZZ9000.

13 May 2019, 11:47	#1
stevelord Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: UK Posts: 540	A4000 CompactFlash IDE Upgrades. Worth it? Hi, I'm replacing a 10gb SCSI drive in an A4000 with a 256Gb CompactFlash card and an IDE-CF adapter. As I understand it the A4000's max throughput is 3.6MB (roughly 28.8Mbit) while the CF card's max throughput is around 150/130Mbps thanks to UDMA7. At the moment drive speed isn't an issue, but I'm planning to get a 16-bit soundcard and do some fairly heavy (for an Amiga) audio work. I've looked at the FASTATA as an option, but this seems a bit overkill for a CF card. I've also read that people have had trouble booting from it with certain configurations. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting the most from an IDE adapter? I'd like to be able to write DVD images at some point, too. I have an IDE DVD-RW. Steve Last edited by stevelord; 13 May 2019 at 11:47. Reason: formatting

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13 May 2019, 12:20	#2
Locutus Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Finland Posts: 1,178	Just plain throughput isn't the only item to worry about. You mention a 10GB SCSI drive, what controller do you have that attached to? IDE on a A4000 (same for FastATA) is all PIO, so the CPU has to do all the work, resulting to high CPU load when you really push it. SCSI can be DMA on Amiga, resulting in far lower CPU use, for Audio work this might be preferable. Either way, modern storage media (CF/SD cards connected to either IDE or SCSI using adapters) will be far faster then any Amiga host controller.

16 May 2019, 01:56	#3
stevelord Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: UK Posts: 540	Ok, I've pulled the lid off and had a poke around. It's erm... an interesting place, a little... custom... Turns out the 10Gb drive isn't SCSI, it's IDE. It's just using SCSI.device off the main A4000 IDE connector. I guess if I want to go SCSI -> CF I'd need a Z3 SCSI card for such shenanigans. Does anyone have any meaningful stats about PIO overheads on a 68040 or 68060?

16 May 2019, 07:48	#4
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,865	Just go IDE -> CF in this case. You don't have a DMA SCSI system currently, so it will not be a downgrade for you.

17 May 2019, 20:09	#11
theq Registerdeaded abUser Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Beyond the Wall Age: 47 Posts: 114	What CF card are you using?

17 May 2019, 20:24	#12
stevelord Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: UK Posts: 540	A 4Gb Indmem card that came with the adapter from Vesalia.de. I've prepped it in WinUAE, formatted, installed ClassicWB3.9, but nothing appears as a drive in the pre-boot menu.

17 May 2019, 20:50	#13
theq Registerdeaded abUser Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Beyond the Wall Age: 47 Posts: 114	Did you try without the slave configuration too, as in just the CF card alone?

17 May 2019, 21:54	#14
stevelord Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: UK Posts: 540	Yes. It hangs for a while, presumably trying to enumerate IDE, then if I go to the early startup control I can only see DF0.

18 May 2019, 16:37	#15
stevelord Registered User Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: UK Posts: 540	Some extra cables arrived this morning and I went through the jumper dance again. Setting JP1 to External/44-pin IDE and using a molex to 4-pin floppy adapter on the side made it spring into life. This has been pretty frustrating, as the IDE is 40-pin, and the 40-pin setting doesn't work. Also the supplied IDE cable has a filled in central pin on each connector, meaning I can't actually use it in the Amiga 4000. I expected better of Vesalia tbh. In case anyone has a similar Delock 91624 IDE-CF converter problem and stumbles across this thread, my (working) jumper settings are: JP1: 1-2 JP2: 1-2 JP3: 1-2

18 May 2019, 17:10	#16
theq Registerdeaded abUser Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Beyond the Wall Age: 47 Posts: 114	Great you figured it out

21 May 2019, 13:07	#19
trixster Guru Meditating Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: England Posts: 2,339	Now make a backup image of your cf card using something like win32diskimager before the card become corrupted and you lose the lot

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