05 March 2016, 14:21 | #1 |
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Join the Vampire / Aros 68k - Team
Aros is the future OS for Vampire and the new standalone devices. The Vampire devs want to support Aros development as a win-win scenario with Vampire getting a open platform and development on Aros accellerated and many users added. There are different tasks to get Aros in a state where it can replace 3.X and it is possible for developers to get Vampire cards when assigned for specific tasks. Who is interested should contact me and then gets informations...
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05 March 2016, 15:34 | #2 |
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I think that speed is probably a must - it's just too damned slow at the moment, and that applies to AROS as a whole. I installed it on my 486 DX2/50Mhz - It performed much, much slower than my A1200 with 030/50Mhz does when running 3.1. So slow that it was unusable, in fact.
I'm not sure that adding more developers will remedy that, though, without restarting AROS development from scratch? D. |
05 March 2016, 16:08 | #3 | |
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05 March 2016, 16:40 | #4 |
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I have probably said some of these previously what I need before I hopefully find some AROS interest again...
- Better compiler. GCC m68k output is crappy. (no register parameters, seems to prefer absolute addressing instead of PC-relative, makes far too large code.. And so on.) - Exactly defined small problem cases. Not "everything is too slow", "programs don't work". - Less annoying hype about Vampire and Aros EDIT: - Amiga side drivers, especially small low level ones are always fun to do. Last edited by Toni Wilen; 05 March 2016 at 16:58. |
05 March 2016, 18:35 | #5 | |
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Aros in RTG mode was tested on Vampire and GUI was/is slow I do not yet know if it is related to the desktops or certain parts like graphics library I did not want to nerve you with that but of course it would be great if you would help us without hype of course |
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05 March 2016, 19:40 | #6 | ||||
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1) gcc team doesnt accept 68k frontend patches? has anyone tried? do they want a fulltime maintainer or what? 2) someone has compiled individual aros binaries with vbcc, i could actually try that here. the question is if it occures to work better (for certain modules, maybe not for all), if aros team accepts vbcc as an optional compiler in their build system) Quote:
btw we are narrowing the problem zones. one suspect is uaehidd, its roughly programmed to work with uae (according to georg) but if it works with a real rtg card its by accident (says jason). as example the modes you coded into it, were all kinds of frequencies i have now edited them to work with 60hz displays. and have most resolutions working with my lcd. have a rough plan to be offered in the prefs only modes supported by a particular graphic card and a bottom line display. ill try to learn and code towards it but im not sure if i can make it, ill definitely need a hand. the other issue is layers, resizing and mowing windows, georg may look into. thor has published some documentation what concerns his implementation on aos. Quote:
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05 March 2016, 19:41 | #7 |
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AROS 68k is just too slow on real Classics, RTG(in FPGA) will not help here.
Is it possible, that wanderer makes this so slow? Or is the code himself not optimized for real Classics? Workbench 3.1 only needs ~5MB for a full installation, how much needs pure AROS68k? Is there an image that only holds pure AROS68k without programs and gimmicks? |
05 March 2016, 19:51 | #8 | |
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Wanderer (desktop) certainly is not fast but also code is not optimized for real classics. The most important tasks for near future is to improve there. Additional RTG on Aros 68k is a wrapper on P96 (developed for the P96 emulation in UAE ) and that needs to be replaced. Aros must be started from HD whereas big parts of AmigaOS were in the kickstarts so there is a difference. |
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05 March 2016, 20:37 | #9 | |||
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remember aros is now compiled for 68000 afaik. perhaps i could compile it for 68040 and we could see if and how much difference it makes. using bitfields, if they are going to be used then may actually make huge difference on apollo, as it has a fast implementation afaik. Quote:
just keep in mind what if os3.1 came with network and usb stack, with a whole rtg solution, with 3d subsystem, a suite of tests and with the development headers archive so on and so on... |
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05 March 2016, 21:29 | #10 |
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Can there never be an AROS kickstart and associated OS that doesn't need an upgraded machine? i feel like that's the ideal scenario.
I don't understand why we should be talking about added features first before the same functionality as 3.x is achieved. |
05 March 2016, 22:04 | #11 | |
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No P96 or CGFX or other things. If in this scenario AROS68k comes nearly on WB3.1 (Speed and compatibility and size), then we can talk about features like CGFX or P96. What to do in this case is, bring AROS68k as fast as possible like WB3.1 without any GFX-Sh**. If AROS with lets say 20 MB is fast as WB3.1, then we can work on other things. |
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05 March 2016, 23:02 | #12 | |
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i have here few videos that werent meant for public, but well |
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05 March 2016, 23:06 | #13 | |
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06 March 2016, 00:25 | #14 | |
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The point of all this is that for AROS to become a viable kickstart/workbench replacement then it needs to be able to run on original hardware. That means that it must perform as fast as an original A1200 (68EC020, 2MB Chipram) running WB3.1. I think we can safely discount the 68k/1.3 comparison. If it runs at the same speed as the original A1200, but with a Vampire attached then what's the point of having the Vampire? Might as well run vanilla 3.1. I suspect that AROS is trying to do things that the original hardware couldn't do without assistance - 256 colour screens (or higher bitdepths), complex icons etc, etc. That's fine, but when given the same resources and assets as an original 3.1 install, it should perform at the same speed or better. Anything less and it's going to get laughed at. Like I said previously, when I ran AROS on my 486 DX-2/50MHz, it should have flown in comparison to an A1200. It did not; it was so slow that you could count the lines being drawn as it refreshed a window. I suspect that there are fundamental flaws in the implementation - heavy reliance on oop, poor compiler performance, who knows? But it needs to get fixed if it's going to deserve the title of "fastest OS in the west", to paraphrase the hype on the AROS website. First get the compatibility up, then make the ROM fit in 512KB and the OS install in <10MB, then get it running at speed. Only after all that can anyone start to think about improving it. D. |
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06 March 2016, 00:43 | #15 |
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Your machine is upgraded, you proved nothing but my point. I said unexpanded hardware. And it's running incredibly slow on your heavily expanded setup, even an 060 A4000.
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06 March 2016, 00:59 | #16 |
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its running on an a4k. 060/50
and yes. all or almost all your points are right. abour what needs to be done. except you now have a comparison to see a system and compare the responsiveness on the same genuine hardware (in an obvious beta stage), while you dont have this option to judge os4 or mos. and this is disappointing so far and needs to be improved i agree. however you dont need to direct your comments at me, as if the situation is my doings and need to improve it myself. i indicate an option. yes i have put some effort in it personally. but aros is a community project im only loosely involved with. you are free to stick with what you have. Last edited by wawa; 06 March 2016 at 01:11. |
06 March 2016, 01:02 | #17 |
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So why the poll 3.1 / Aros ?
I like the very fast Vampire 2, and want to buy one for my A600, after plane tickets and hotel are paid for for a famous demoparty in Germany... You have asked me if I can help with software, and I answered tentatively as I have a few projects running on top of my job. But contact me after Revision 2016, and let's see what we can do |
06 March 2016, 01:05 | #18 | |
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Ofcourse, many of us are more than happy to stick to 1.3, 3.1 or 3.9. And some/many are intrested in more features... or even running both I dont see them mutually exclusive. Looking forward to any Revision productions! |
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06 March 2016, 01:13 | #19 |
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I also think that AROS should be the future, but it's just not worth it as it stands right now - if it's slower than unexpanded hardware, then most of the advantages of running it on the Vampire with its vastly increased speed are lost. That's what happened to most other OS's - you need a faster machine to be able to run Win10 than you do to run WinXP.
Much, much more development of AROS is needed but the Vampire will be ready for the real world much, much sooner than it is realistically possible to get AROS ready for the Vampire. D. |
06 March 2016, 01:28 | #20 | |
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