"Pure" platformers?

[stefcep]

Originally Posted by blade002

And you sound like a Christian who says he used to be an Atheist and now is trying to convert us to Christianity. Mate, we just do not see Jesus in Mario, we don't see the light and we don't wish to see the light because there is no light, there is no divine God just as there is no divine Mario, we have found our own God that is without the fanatical indoctrination of Mario, its in games like Turrican 2 and various other Amiga or non Amiga gaming experiences, so as i said before, there is no "best" platform game out there!, there is only what you "deem" as the best but by many other peoples standards is not.

WTF?

Man its comments like this that give Amigans a bad name.

FWIW I've been an Amigan since 1992. Have A4000 68060 ( cyberstorm II) with CV64, Toccata, and a VLab. About as high end (excluding PPC) as you can get. AND bought this stuff new when it cost more than a new kitchen. I've probably forgotten more Amiga facts than you know.

AmigaOS is great, probably the best single user OS ever. But Amiga platformers are no match for the likes of what was available on the SNES. They simply do not have the same quality. You may not agree. A few others here might not as well. But the OVERWHELMING majority of gamers in the world who are not blinkered by their own obsession will unanimously disagree with you.

I

[PowerPie5000]

I think Amiga and console platformers are both great in their own special way but i "personally" prefer using a control pad rather than pushing up on a joystick to jump..... but it's the other way around when it comes to arcade fighters

[lilalurl]

Originally Posted by PowerPie5000

Erm... i think you quite possibly may have just stuck 2 of the same pic together ... almost! the first pic you again went into the side/front of an enemy! (did you die?) and i am sure with the turtles you are supposed to jump on their shell...

Actually no. I thought given the order of the pictures it was obvious, but I was jumping over the turtle and going through its head.

[ Show youtube player ]
Nestopia movie if you prefer to check directly by yourself (play with Super Mario Bros. (W) [!])

Originally Posted by PowerPie5000

the collision is nothing worth mentioning as i have seen far worse in plenty of old and new games... this is good in comparison also are you not getting bored trying to find very tiny problems with Super Mario Bros? How long did this take you?

I agree that there are far worse games on that matter.

But I was initially posting to reply to those who consider Mario to be perfect, a form of art etc...

I give my opinion and tries to give an example of one thing that always deterred me from enjoying the game (and having a hard time to understand how other people can enjoy it).

Other people say my example is not good, I try to explain further, I got some explanations about top/side.
Well, for me it does not fit in a platform game mechanics and is a problem, but so be it if other people consider it ok.

So I decide to provide another example of collision detection problem.

[blade002]

Originally Posted by stefcep

WTF?

Man its comments like this that give Amigans a bad name.

FWIW I've been an Amigan since 1992. Have A4000 68060 ( cyberstorm II) with CV64, Toccata, and a VLab. About as high end (excluding PPC) as you can get. AND bought this stuff new when it cost more than a new kitchen. I've probably forgotten more Amiga facts than you know.

AmigaOS is great, probably the best single user OS ever. But Amiga platformers are no match for the likes of what was available on the SNES. They simply do not have the same quality. You may not agree. A few others here might not as well. But the OVERWHELMING majority of gamers in the world who are not blinkered by their own obsession will unanimously disagree with you.

I

I don't give a toss if you have actually had sex with an Amiga, a very large majority of the NES/SNES owning public were Americans because the Amiga never made headway over there and with the vast majority of advertising and publicity being based in America for Mario, then its hardly surprising that the "world" would not agree with me because many Americans (not all) consider themselves as being "the world".

The simple fact that you cannot understand is that you need to stop letting us know "why" Mario is the best by YOUR standards and accept the fact that not everyone thinks like you and not everything is about you and what you consider the best game. You have addressed everyone else on their points and have not addressed a "single" valid point i have made and it seems the only thing that got your attention from me is this aforementioned comment.

In other words, let it be mate, because there is no right or wrong in what is the best platformer. Tell us till your black and blue in the face all you want that Mario is the BEST of all time but its not going to change the fact that self affirmed facts in your mind and not the self affirmations in mine and whilst you may like pumpkin with your fish, i may prefer potato... what is so hard to understand about that?

And do i give Amigians a bad name do i!? I am not an Amigian, i am a guy who has played on a number of systems in the day and its my opinion just as it is yours on what i consider a good game and would not be so arrogant as to say that only 1 game wipes out all others within a particular genre my Nintendian.

And blinkered by obsession!? .. who is the one obsessed with Mario here? do you hear me going on and on and on and on about Turrican, or Yo Joe or Superfrog...etc... nope! all i am saying is that you need to look at the bigger picture and you call that obsession? Take another look in the mirror mate.

[Shoonay]

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Oi Shoonay! Why don't you join the fun?

/Lurch voice on
- "You Rang M'Lord?"
/Lurch voice off

This discussion sucks ... Can't say much about Mario as I only finished 2-3 levels in one play... and got bored...
Silly platformers with dodgy collision based on skillful jumping suck, I prefer to gather things: coins, fruits, pills, weapons, powerups, levelups, energy drinks - the more the better.
Gimme SuperFrog or Turrican anytime

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Shoonay

This discussion sucks ...

People are selling opinions as facts and keep sticking to them. Perfect fuel for a flame war

[Shoonay]

Originally Posted by stefcep

But the OVERWHELMING majority of gamers in the world

Thank you for this argument. Exactly why I don't like it...

So, in other words, the OVERWHELMING majority of gamers in the world is always right, no matter if they never tried any other games/platforms, not to mention the OVERWHELMING majority of people in the world has the very best music taste (Go Britney, yeah!)... yes... great argument...

Hey Lemmings, let's got jump off a cliff this summer, whatta you say? WOOHOOO!

[blade002]

Originally Posted by stefcep

The thing is that i have been playing Amiga platforming games via Winuae as well, using a a PC PS2 style control pad. Ofcourse you'd know the buttons and directional keys can be configured to do whatever you want them too. Hell you can even play Amiga games with an analogue thumb stick if you like. I took the next step and bought a genesis joypad, modified it so that one of its button was also up, so i could jump with the button rather than the up direction. And you know what? the Amiga games are soooo much more playable this way. In fact i have achieved my highest scores EVER this way, rather than with a one-buton joystick. It proves to me that playing with a one-button joystick is an unnecessary, frustrating hindrance, rather than a challenge. There's a difference, which I think you confuse: just beacsue a game is hard because the of the limitations of the control mechanism, dosen't make it a test of skill. Indeed its nothing but a source of frustration. But I think nostalgia is clouding people's judgement.

Just because you find a Joypad frustrating it does not mean that WE DO !!.. i find a Joypad EXTREMELY frustrating (i use one for game emulation which includes SNES in the Multiplatform comp on this very website).

Does that make me RIGHT ... NO... its what i PREFER!!.. I AM NOT YOU, CyberDruid is not you! Hungry Horace is not you!, DemonHellraiser is not you! ... we don't all feel the same way, and if we did what a boring world it would be!.. Mario World on the SNES i KNOW is a GREAT game, but its just NOT a platformer i enjoy!

[Shoonay]

Oh, another thing I find funny is people sticking to one kind of controlls in ALL games

Dunno bout you guys, but I would never play most Amiga games without the joystick, I always had one, it feels the Amiga is incomplete without one... on the other hand, I consider the PSX joypad as the greatest joypad in the world that fits my hands perfectly and love to play most PSX games with it... but these both suck in PC FPP/Strategy games, so I don't touch them without a proper mouse and keyboard...

[stefcep]

Originally Posted by blade002

I don't give a toss if you have actually had sex with an Amiga, a very large majority of the NES/SNES owning public were Americans because the Amiga never made headway over there and with the vast majority of advertising and publicity being based in America for Mario, then its hardly surprising that the "world" would not agree with me because many Americans (not all) consider themselves as being "the world".

Don't know about America, I'm from Australia. Amiga did well here. So much so that many people like me never got a SNES at the time. As you say just coz its popular doesn't mean that Amiga had better platformers. Even in CU Amiga/Amiga format it was ackowledged that Nintendo games were of the highest quality and often the best example of a genre. But you're right: you're entitled to stick to your preferred control method if it works for you. But as you're a broadminded fellow you might TRY using a joypad on a real AMiga or under WinUAE and re-play Super Frog. You might just like it.

[PowerPie5000]

I completely agree with Shoonay! Basically different systems and different games are suited to different types of controller.... I do not stick to one type of controller for every game or system! I use whatever i think is best for the particular game i am playing.... on whatever system

[TCD]

Originally Posted by stefcep

But as you're a broadminded fellow you might TRY using a joypad on a real AMiga or under WinUAE and re-play Super Frog. You might just like it.

Nice that you just ignore direct questions, but alas I can still comment on your posts anyway. Blade has tried it and also written that he did. Now if you can't read properly and just don't follow the whole thread, I can understand that you keep repeating the same bullsh*t over and over again Why do you try to convince others that Super Mario is the best platformer? I really don't get it.

[Shoonay]

At this era of modern technology, you can basically use ANY type of controller with ANY game.
Either by various PC adapters on emulation or real hardware hacked - almost everything's possible.
Believe me or not if you like stefcep, I tried a few Amiga platformers with that joypad I mentioned earlier that I consider the best in the world... and you know what?
Most Amiga patformers suck on the digital keys.
They feel a bit better on the analog stick, but still not right - as they were meant to feel.
Nothing beats the original feeling

[DH]

Originally Posted by stefcep

It proves to me that playing with a one-button joystick is an unnecessary, frustrating hindrance, rather than a challenge. There's a difference, which I think you confuse: just beacsue a game is hard because the of the limitations of the control mechanism, dosen't make it a test of skill. Indeed its nothing but a source of frustration. But I think nostalgia is clouding people's judgement.

Obviously you prefer the gamepad with it's zillions of button controls That's your preference, and I ain't going to argue with that

btw. Have you tried 'Volfied' using a gamepad, it's almost impossible to do the quick turns that are required in the game. Many times I broke a joystick with this game and I was *very* able to get through the game. I have also tried it with a gamepad, and I can't realisticly copy the same moves in the game that I *can* do with the joystick

IMHO, and many others here, a joystick was meant for Amiga games and Amiga games were designed with that fact in mind, and a SNES had a gamepad for the very same reasons, so you either stop whining on about how much better Mario, the SNES and a gamepad is and concentrate on the platform games themselves, keeping your opinions of the best games machines and controllers to yourself.

Your opinion counts, for now, but don't keep on pushing it into our faces as being the most ultimate, purist, best game on the best system ever in the whole wide world and universe since time began with the best controller too. I've never heard so much BullS@#t in my life, you like it, well good for you, but it ain't my favourite by far.

'TURRICAN RULES' in my opinion but that's all I have to say

Edit: Now who wants to start a new thread called 'Super Nintendo - Jesus, what a load of crap!'

[T_hairy_bootson]

My take on this whole thread is this:
If I have a choice and big screen in front of me I would rather use a digital joystick if I can. If given the choice of one or two buttons I would go with two and leave up mapped to jump at the same time. If I have to use a joypad especially on a handheld console then I also want a button mapped to jump. I also like the mario games, I don't think they are gods gift to platform gamers though.

Bubble Bobble and the rest of taito's coin-ops are gods gift to platformers.
Those are enjoyable on nearly every console, arcade machine and home computer unless the conversion guys totally botched it up.

I do really love Super Mario Land on the monochrome gameboy though, imo they just got everything right in that game. The rest of the mario games for the orig gameboy are pretty crappy though.

THIS IS ALL JUST MY OPINION AND IS NO MORE OR LESS VALID THAN ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION.

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by Shoonay

not to mention the OVERWHELMING majority of people in the world has the very best music taste (Go Britney, yeah!)... yes... great argument...

aint that the truth.

Originally Posted by Shoonay

Dunno bout you guys, but I would never play most Amiga games without the joystick, I always had one, it feels the Amiga is incomplete without one... on the other hand, I consider the PSX joypad as the greatest joypad in the world that fits my hands perfectly and love to play most PSX games with it... but these both suck in PC FPP/Strategy games, so I don't touch them without a proper mouse and keyboard...

I can happily live without a joystick myself, but there's nothing wrong with preferring it (I was once the same, especially with SWOS)

I've tried to stress so many times in this thread how I love using multi-buttons on Amiga games. Hell, sometimes i quite like mouse games using an anaglue stick. My A1200 has two PS2 pads connected so i can even enjoy doing that on a real machine. My PS3 is setup for running e-uae, and the last thing i want to have to do most of the time is to have to add a keyboard to it.

I even spent time completely removing the need to use multiple F-keys in the Cybernoid games, and made it possible to rotate weapons by using the second button, simply because I didnt want to have to bother with keyboard controls on a game that plays so nicely on a pad.... but *still* I prefer (and feel i have better control) using the up2jump method on platform games...

but still...

Originally Posted by stefcep

<my opinion> proves to me that playing with a one-button joystick is an unnecessary, frustrating hindrance, rather than a challenge. There's a difference, which I think you confuse: just beacsue a game is hard because the of the limitations of the control mechanism, dosen't make it a test of skill. Indeed its nothing but a source of frustration. But I think nostalgia is clouding people's judgement.

Additional:

I've always found Indy Heat to be at its best using the keyboard (especially nice, chunky original amiga keys), but will that stop me trying to add third joystick control to it? no. I happen to think the option to choose such things is one of the greatest things we can do to continue improving the many already-great Amiga games we have. I'm certainly not dumb enough to claim anything is perfect, as has been done here with Mario.

[discomeats]

Bubble Bobble and the rest of taito's coin-ops are gods gift to platformers.
Those are enjoyable on nearly every console, arcade machine and home computer unless the conversion guys totally botched it up.

Every conversion of those games seemed to be really good for whatever system they were on, including the really crap systems that in my factual opinion are rubbish

THIS IS ALL JUST MY OPINION AND IS NO MORE OR LESS VALID THAN ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION.

And I'll steal this too, because having one's own opinion is what separates humans and robots from animals and robot-animals

And my joypad has 161 buttons, so ner

[Rabbit80]

I prefer up for jump on a stick, button for jump on a pad. And using a stick for Amiga and using a pad for everything else...

Mario was good, but by far not the best.

Turrican doesn't work for me in WinUAE coz i have to use a pad.. Works brilliantly on real miggy with stick!

Nuff said!

[pce_gamer]

Or personal preference. Who can tell?

Sure. Much the way some people prefer 8bit systems/games over 16bit systems/games. It's a personal preference, but that doesn't change the fact that the 16bit system had more advance gameplay mechanics/setups overall. And I'm sure some people prefer playing action/platforming games with a keyboard instead. Personal preference still doesn't change the fact, though.

Some like Mario, some don't. Some like 'up 2 jump'™, some don't. Do you want to tell people what they should prefer?

Is that what you got from my post? You think I'm telling people what they should prefer? Wow. Great deduction skills.

What do you really expect on an Amiga board. That everybody cheers in when you say 'Mario is the greatest platform series of all times'?

Heh. I don't remember saying that (nor thinking that either). There are hundreds of great platforming games be it home console or arcade, and that don't use 'up' for jump for a specific reason. It's a less efficient mechanism. Gameplay mechanics got more complicated/advanced/refined and developers moved away from the single button joystick with up for jump. On the Amiga, it seems to be a carry over for the 8bit home computer systems while the rest of the industry moved on. Are there some exceptions? Sure, like anything in life. I can't imagine playing Street Fighter 2 and many-many-many other 2D(or 3D for that matter) fighting games where up wasn't used for jumping. But then again, those aren't 'platform' games.

That said, excusing my more limited experience of the Amiga scene, aren't there games that take advantage of using a Genesis controller(as I've heard was/is popular) on the Amiga? I'm sure there has to be some.

"You" are calling "us" fanboyish? We "do not" say that ANY Amiga game is better than ANY and EVERY Nintendo game in a particular genre, but "you" and the rest of the Mario cult proclaim it as being "the best" platformer ever made over every other system, and you are calling "us" the Fanboys?

Nice try sunshine, on ya bike! Nintendo heads are Career fanboys! Its almost like a disease.

I'm a Nintendo fanboy? Hehe. You obviously know nothing about me then. But hey, if making ignorant assumptions is your cup of tea, more power to you. Reminds me of the time I got called a C64 fanboy just because I agreed with some C64 posters point, then later called an Atari 8bit fanboy in the same thread because I pointed out a falsity of some passionate C64 poster. Silly fanboys.

because I would have much to say you

Ohh? What's that? Are you going to launch some sort of attack on me or something? Try to bruise/poke at my "insecurities" or such? Among other consoles of that era, but sure - I'm a PCE fan. I give you the green light

lilalurl: You're trying too hard to find flaws in a game that pretty much doesn't have any. Instead of focusing on the negative (and because there are hundreds of other platform games besides Mario), focus on some positive examples on the Amiga. I rather see some Amiga game examples and their strengths.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by pce_gamer

The Mario games were brilliant. From SMB1 and up, the gameplay controls and mechanics were perfect. Pure perfection. If it's one thing that the Japanese knew how to do better than ANY one else (US/EU/Other), it was gameplay mechanics. Too bad the Amiga wasn't popular in Japan

Originally Posted by pce_gamer

Heh. I don't remember saying that (nor thinking that either). There are hundreds of great platforming games be it home console or arcade, and that don't use 'up' for jump for a specific reason. It's a less efficient mechanism. Gameplay mechanics got more complicated/advanced/refined and developers moved away from the single button joystick with up for jump. On the Amiga, it seems to be a carry over for the 8bit home computer systems while the rest of the industry moved on. Are there some exceptions? Sure, like anything in life. I can't imagine playing Street Fighter 2 and many-many-many other 2D(or 3D for that matter) fighting games where up wasn't used for jumping. But then again, those aren't 'platform' games.

Erm, yes I think you did. At least that is what I think your post implied. You could have put a 'I think' (like I did) in your post and that is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Everybody has his opinion about how a 'perfect' game should look and 'feel'.
Btw : Using words like 'bias', 'ignorant' and 'fanboyish' lead to the 'deduction' that you aren't really accepting that people could not agree to your point of view