A1200 upgrade suggestions

[GearCross]

Hey everyone,

I got my A1200 fixed and recapped just recently so I was thinking on finally getting it a few upgrades, namely some sort of accelerator/RAM and an upsacaler/scandoubler.


For the upscaler/scandoubler:

I'm planning on using the 1200 plugged to a modern LCD monitor, the same that I use on my main computer, while it does support 15KHz native it gets a weird green tint that I'm unable to remove, so that idea is out the window. I essentially found 2 accessible options, an OSSC and the Indivision AGA MkIII.

Which one would be better? OSSC is about 30€ less than the Indivision factoring in the remote, PSU and shipping, but I read it can have some compatibility issues and its deinterlacing is pretty sub-par... How many Amiga games/demos will make use of the interlaced modes? Maybe worth the extra for the MkIII? I don't have other retro systems, so the versatility of the OSSC is not an advantage in my case.


For the accelerator:

To be honest, I am waiting for the release of the Pistorm32, so this'll be just a stepping stone, and would be sold after the fact. Considering either an ACA1211, just for the 11.2MB of RAM and the fact it still supports PCMCIA, or a TF1230 with 64MB + KS 3.x roms. My A1200 still has KS3.0, so the ROM upgrade is needed.

The ACA1211 would be about 110€ (factoring shipping) and the TF1230+ KS 3.x would be about 195€.


Thank you for your feedback. Happy new year everyone!

[Pollock]

Happy New Year!

For the scandoubler, there are many options, and you listed most of them. What i would say is, people don't realise that even if your using a scandoubler, the monitor you are using, is still important. Some monitors are silky smooth with the scandoubler, but some don't handle the scrolling so well, and i have seen tearing with some monitors, this in itself, deserves a much more in depth explanation.

As for an upgrade, there has never been a better time to own an A1200

Again, it all depends on the level of performance you want, and how adept you are with using the Amiga.

The TF1230 looks a great card, same speed as an ACA 1233n, so about 9200 in Sysinfo, with an 030 and loads of RAM.

The TF1260 can also be bought if you want more grunt, but for this, you will have to source your own 060, these vary in range from $60 to $500. I have a TF1260 and a TF536, and i can recommend them, great cards.

The Apollo Icedrake is coming out soon, and will offer even more juice, although it requires some tinkering, and isn't always as plug and play as an 030 is.

There are loads more options, others will chime in

[fxgogo]

The only thing I would suggest asking yourself before buying an accelerator is, “What are you going to use it for?” If it is WHDLoad, cool makes sense, but if you are going to want to accelerate productivity apps or creative apps, rather wait for the piStorm or use a pi.

[admiral]

Originally Posted by GearCross

Which one would be better? OSSC is about 30€ less than the Indivision factoring in the remote, PSU and shipping, but I read it can have some compatibility issues and its deinterlacing is pretty sub-par... How many Amiga games/demos will make use of the interlaced modes? Maybe worth the extra for the MkIII? I don't have other retro systems, so the versatility of the OSSC is not an advantage in my case.

I'd take the OSSC anytime. Besides supporting open hardware (if you buy at the right place, like VGP) and being generally more useful (for other computers, consoles), Indivision has bad rep. Latency, tearing and other issues. Seen too many complaints about it. Hard pass.

The ACA1211 would be about 110€ (factoring shipping) and the TF1230+ KS 3.x would be about 195€.

I'd look at the relatively new Tsunami 1230, over those two. Clock is derived from the 14MHz onboard clock unlike most other accelerators, and that results in lower CHIP RAM access latency and higher throughput.

[crazyc]

I think as pollock says above, it all depends on:
- what you are going to be using the amiga for
- do you have preferences re hardware (ie original vs fpga etc)
The last point gets debated frequently and ferociously on here, but in the end its down to each persons own feelings.

If you will just be playing normal games then you don't need much. If you want to tinker and have a faster workbench then a good 030 card is the way to go.

Are you using whdload or looking to play games from floppy disk? If the latter then compatibility is more important.

[GearCross]

Originally Posted by Pollock

[snip]

I'm sort of leaning to the Indivision given my monitor supports 50Hz from any input source without issues, just the 15KHz or the way the Amiga syncs the signal makes it green tinted...

Like I said, the accelerator is just gonna be a stepping stone while I wait for the Pistorm32, so I don't want to spend that much. Whilst I'd love to get myself an 060 beast it's pretty unnecessary. For now it's just to play some games, dive a bit into the demo scene with stuff that doesn't require an 80MHz or over 060 to run

Originally Posted by fxgogo

[snip]

My main goal is to play some games, enjoy the amazing demos, have a fairly snappy miggy to also go online to download stuff as needed. I have a PCMCIA NIC that works a treat.

I'd like to get the pistorm just to tinker and, well... Play newer games or demos that require the oomph of the 060 without breaking the bank.
So yeah, this accelerator would just be to fill the gap while I wait given there's still no release date estimate.

Originally Posted by admiral

[snip]

I'm all up for supporting open source hardware. For the mad lads/lasses that dedicate their time and resources into making all that cool stuff and making it open source.
When I looked for the OSSC I did come across VGP, investigated a bit and figured it would be the place to go. I've been seeing quite a bit of divisive opinions on icomp products, making it quite hard to form a proper decision. But from that... yeah, the OSSC has the clear advantage. I'll also probably need a proper RGB to SCART cable to get the best picture quality. Guess the weight shifted to the OSSC from that first reply

The Tsunami looks like a nice card, but it's out of stock everywhere.

Originally Posted by crazyc

[snip]

I'll mostly use the amiga for gaming, then demos, when needed get online to download anything that is needed and lastly, just to fool around really, I've had an A500 when I was a 7 year old kid as a hand me down computer, but I really just played games, so I'd like to explore a bit more.

Regarding FPGA (Vampire), software emulation (pistorm) or the real thing (680x0)... as long as the final result is equal to an enjoyable experience of these wonderful pieces of computer history, I don't mind any of the options.

Whilst I could go full emulation, boot up WinUAE or so and get ludicrous speeds on everything, it's not the same as the real hardware, it doesn't hold me.

Of course price dictates it all in my case, I feel that even for all it does, with some compatibility issues here and there, the Apollo team cards are a tad pricey, although great pieces of engineering. The people behind the pistorm are doing wonders for the scene as well, can't wait to see what comes out the Pistorm32. Also really appreciate the work by Stephen Leary for designing the TF accelerators and actually putting them out to public and open sourcing them. I feel like the "Warp1260" is more of vapourware with a handful sent to reviewers just for hype than an actual product. I urge you to prove me wrong... but that's the impression I have been getting ever since their "debut" nearly 3 years ago.

But, like Pollock said: "never been a better time to own an A1200".


Thank you all for your feedback.

[admiral]

Originally Posted by GearCross

I'll also probably need a proper RGB to SCART cable to get the best picture quality.

You want an RGB to VGA adapter instead, and to use the VGA input in the OSSC for best results in my experience.

The primary reason is sync signals are separate, rather than using composite sync, resulting in cleaner sync.

Such an adapter does not need to be buffered (yet it would probably not hurt anyway), as A500/600/1200 RGB port is buffered, unlike big box Amiga models.

[GearCross]

Originally Posted by admiral

You want an RGB to VGA adapter instead, and to use the VGA input in the OSSC for best results in my experience.

The primary reason is sync signals are separate, rather than using composite sync, resulting in cleaner sync.

Such an adapter does not need to be buffered (yet it would probably not hurt anyway), as A500/600/1200 RGB port is buffered, unlike big box Amiga models.

I already got a buffered one. Completely forgot about the fact that the OSSC has a VGA input.

Though mine produces some sort of vertical jailbars... Not sure if it's my monitors not being perfect for the 15KHz or the adapter itself not being great.

[admiral]

Originally Posted by GearCross

I already got a buffered one. Completely forgot about the fact that the OSSC has a VGA input.

Though mine produces some sort of vertical jailbars... Not sure if it's my monitors not being perfect for the 15KHz or the adapter itself not being great.

I do not know what the cause of the jailbars is. Some googling says something about A1200 producing only half of the sync pulses it should (?). It might be exclusive to buffered adapters, too (?).

I have recently heard of this, however:

https://www.ebay.es/itm/265132363027?

I do not know how well it works, but might be just the thing.

[GearCross]

Originally Posted by admiral

I do not know what the cause of the jailbars is. Some googling says something about A1200 producing only half of the sync pulses it should (?). It might be exclusive to buffered adapters, too (?).

I have recently heard of this, however:

https://www.ebay.es/itm/265132363027?

I do not know how well it works, but might be just the thing.

That is exactly what I get from mine! I'll look into it. Thanks a lot!

[Krashan]

Leaving open source aside, note that Indivision reads video digitally, directly from the chipset. For OSSC we have D/A conversion in Amiga, then A/D conversion (with pixel clock regeneration) in the scandoubler. It won't help image quality.

[aeberbach]

I’ve had OSSC and Indivision Mk2. Both were compromises. A good 15kHz made me happier than either. I bought an Arcooda 20” arcade LCD. Obviously not for you if you want CRT thought.

[GearCross]

Originally Posted by Krashan

Leaving open source aside, note that Indivision reads video digitally, directly from the chipset. For OSSC we have D/A conversion in Amiga, then A/D conversion (with pixel clock regeneration) in the scandoubler. It won't help image quality.

Yes, that I am very aware... What is really making me indecisive is the price for the Indivision. While the OSSC is not that much cheaper it has versatility. I do have one of those cheap SCART to HDMI converters, while it does the job nicely, I notice a sort of frame skipping at regular intervals, specially jarring in platformers or side-scrollers, as if the converter was still outputting 60Hz when I have it set to 50 to match the Amiga content.

I don't strive for the absolute highest quality, but I'd like at least something that can give me a good experience without burning a hole in my wallet.

Originally Posted by aeberbach

I’ve had OSSC and Indivision Mk2. Both were compromises. A good 15kHz made me happier than either. I bought an Arcooda 20” arcade LCD. Obviously not for you if you want CRT thought.

I'd love a nice large multisync CRT, but I don't have the space for such a beast. If I had space for an extra desk to setup the Amiga then yeah, I'd try to search for one of those, or a full 15KHz compatible LCD like the one you mentioned, but unfortunately, I have to set it up on my rather small computer desk and store it away when not in use... Also from what I've seen, a good option for a traditional 31KHz CRT is the Scanplus AGA.

Given you had both the OSSC and the Indivision what are your thoughts on either? I mostly want to play games, watch some demos, the very occasional workbench need to get stuff online or to just fool around.

Like I said before, it's quite hard to make a decision on icomp stuff, some talk real well about the products, others completely the opposite. Also seen some drama stuff floating around regarding the ACA1234.

[Damion]

Originally Posted by admiral

I'd take the OSSC anytime. Besides supporting open hardware (if you buy at the right place, like VGP) and being generally more useful (for other computers, consoles), Indivision has bad rep. Latency, tearing and other issues. Seen too many complaints about it. Hard pass.

Lag and tearing issues are part and parcel of converting the Amiga's 50/60 Hz analog video signal to something modern displays can deal with (latency is an inherent issue with most digital displays, anyway). I wouldn't ascribe this fault to a configurable scandoubler. 50 Hz on the Amiga side displayed at 60 will tear, regardless.

In a nutshell: the original Indivision AGA had a synchronized 50/60 Hz mode (no tearing or latency issues) and a configurable analog output, it also properly supported the AGA color palette unlike many previous scandoublers. The MK2 had an absolutely stunning digital output and was highly configurable, but unfortunately lacked a vsync mode (mainly a problem for (1) those who had a 50 Hz capable display, and (2) appreciated games and demos). It could be configured very close to perfect (essentially no tearing), but not quite.

The MK3 is an outstanding piece of hardware. As Krashan mentioned, video quality is superb. I've used mine with 50 Hz capable LCDs and CRTs, and it's simply the best Amiga scandoubler I've ever had (and I've had quite a few!). The downside to its flexibility, is that it might take a bit of time to get the hang of the tools, and to configure a perfect screenmode. I use mine mainly with CRTs, there is no detectable lag or latency, in fact it's absolute perfection. The MK3's analog quality is also superb, the best I've seen.

What Pollock stated about LCD compatibility is spot-on. I'd rather have the more tweakable product, but I have no experience with the OSSC (video quality being a pet peeve here).

Originally Posted by GearCross

Also seen some drama stuff floating around regarding the ACA1234.

I pre-ordered the 50 MHz version. In brief, I'm very happy that fixes (which also included product improvements) were quickly released. These things are typical with tech, and especially in this case given the featureset. I've had quite a lot of what would have been awesome Amiga hardware, let down by little niggles which were never resolved. Also, in fairness, some of the supposed problems in this case weren't problems at all, but user-induced rabbit holes.

It bests all of the other A1200/'030 accelerators I've tested over the years in AIBB and other benchmarks*, and has a lot of unique features. It doesn't crash, feels fast, and runs games and demos flawlessly. I only wish it had an ("at user's own risk") 55 MHz mode, as that's the one area where some of the previous ACA cards have a slight edge.

That said, there are a number of great '030 cards out there. The Blizzard 1230/IV is a rightly revered warhorse, and (while a bit slower) the old GVP cards were also really good from a compatibility standpoint (WHDLoad). I don't have experience yet with the Tsunami...

* Sans the prior 1233/55, which performs a bit better in some AIBB tests due to its increased clock speed.

[aeberbach]

Originally Posted by GearCross

Given you had both the OSSC and the Indivision what are your thoughts on either?

I haven't had a MK3 but I expect it will be great. Individual Computers produces excellent products though probably over engineered therefore they tend to be expensive. The OSSC is a typical open source project, trying to be all things to all people. It has its drawbacks; one is that various inputs have various filters on them, the best way of getting Amiga video in is with a SCART cable rather than the filtered VGA input so plan on $50 for a custom-made cable as well. It's a pain to set up. You have to buy the remote really, this isn't made clear when you are just reading about it but you definitely want it. Connectors emerge from all sides of it making it an awkward beast to keep on your desk and it's another plug pack to manage. But I would probably choose the OSSC if I had to choose today. Excellent picture if you are prepared to tweak settings.

If you want a budget option consider the GBS8200 converter board with an ESP8266 running GBSControl to fix the awful interface and give you much more control over filters and resolutions. With the embedded wifi controller providing a web interface you can access with your phone or other computer it feels far easier to control than navigating on the little built-in LCD of the OSSC. It's not as perfect as an OSSC but to me it is easier to live with - provided you are comfortable soldering to get it going - and does give excellent results. Check out this video: [ Show youtube player ]

[Heywood]

Originally Posted by aeberbach

I’ve had OSSC and Indivision Mk2. Both were compromises. A good 15kHz made me happier than either. I bought an Arcooda 20” arcade LCD. Obviously not for you if you want CRT thought.

I've been considering the Arcooda display as it read pretty good specs wise - what did you end up doing for a housing?

[GearCross]

Originally Posted by Damion

snip

I did read very good things about the original Indivision AGA and how coveted it was over the Mk2 for that exact reason.
I'll take a bit of loss in picture quality over tearing or frame drop/skipping any day. Heck... I played all my games as a kid on a 14" CRT connected to my A500 through the A520's RF out lol.

If the Mk3 can deliver both then that's a whole different beast. I don't mind having to tinker with settings and such, more often than not I prefer to spend some time tuning it to my tastes than a plug 'n play solution that "just works" and has little options to pick. A reason why I'm torn between OSSC and the Mk3.

I'm not even considering the ACA1234, It's way too pricey for something that I will eventually be replace by the pistorm32, but I can understand its price. Same goes for cards from Blizzard or GVP.

Originally Posted by aeberbach

snip

So... With the inclusion of a proper RGB to SCART, the OSSC would end up being more expensive than the Mk3. I did read about how fiddly the OSSC is and the remote being pretty much mandatory to avoid pulling ones own hair... That said, desk space, available plugs, is a factor to consider, and both are at a premium.

I had completely forgotten about the GBS8200 and how good it becomes after those mods, very cheap too. I am comfortable with soldering so I could do that, but in the end I'd end up with a bundle of wires around the upscaler like the OSSC...

[admiral]

Originally Posted by GearCross

So... With the inclusion of a proper RGB to SCART, the OSSC would end up being more expensive than the Mk3. I did read about how fiddly the OSSC is and the remote being pretty much mandatory to avoid pulling ones own hair... That said, desk space, available plugs, is a factor to consider, and both are at a premium.

Any RGB to SCART or RGB to VGA will at least work. Most likely, work really well.

Timings and such, there's [this wiki](https://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/OSSC), with a lot of information for each platform supported. I believe the Amiga page links to a thread here at EAB which has pixel perfect timings for all the common modes. Just copy them and all is well (or at least it was for me).

It honestly feels digital as long as I use RGB to VGA. The SCART cable I have picks up some noise.

[aeberbach]

Originally Posted by Heywood

I've been considering the Arcooda display as it read pretty good specs wise - what did you end up doing for a housing?

Nothing yet. Salvaged an older 20" iMac, but it does not fit in there. I expect I will just make use of the two mounting holes on each side to attach a plate that matches VESA 100x100 pattern and put it on an arm, I have a couple spare. Out of the box it is perfectly usable, I have been just standing it on edge.

[aeberbach]

Originally Posted by GearCross

I had completely forgotten about the GBS8200 and how good it becomes after those mods, very cheap too. I am comfortable with soldering so I could do that, but in the end I'd end up with a bundle of wires around the upscaler like the OSSC...

Not so much... Once you have the soldering iron out it's a simple matter to remove the connectors you don't want. You end up with one power input, a VGA input and VGA output. I made a VESA mount case for it so that it can sandwich behind a monitor. Since the output VGA goes directly to the monitor you can use a very short one and you never see it. The input VGA is the same as a native monitor would have. That leaves one extra power cord. Stupidly I killed mine plugging in 12V (GBS is fine, not so much the ESP8266) in a confusion over plug packs but it would be simple to find a regulated 5V supply on the board - IC5 or IC9 look likely candidates - to maintain the 5-12V capability. Some monitors are powered with 12V so that could then supply both...