12 October 2021, 11:06 | #21 |
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SAGA is just another standard which doesn't solve anything and just keeps fragmenting the userbase. Just like 68080 is. We now have soft-cores running at hundreds of MIPS. Without any new instruction sets and/or the need to recompile old apps.
The Vampire is just Gunnar's delusional view of how the Amiga would've evolved under his guidance - he doesn't accept criticism and/or different views than him, and the current Apollo Team is kinda like a religious cult and Gunnar is their leader. Instead of gathering the support of the major developers out there, they have alienated them with their lack of openness and willingness to compromise their original view. WinUAE allows any programmer to target fast 68000 compatible soft-cores + RTG without fragmenting the userbase any further. There are plenty of high-end Amigas out there, the PiStorm is cheap as chips and will bring high-end Amigas to everyone and that's how the Amiga community should work in 2021. Not with weird agendas of pushing expensive proprietary hardware with proprietary extensions. The Vampire is a dead end. Let it rot in a coffin |
12 October 2021, 11:12 | #22 |
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P96 is a software interface for RTG hardware, how the hardware operates does not matter provided there is a driver for it. P96 supports chunky and planar layouts. It's specifications are stable since a very long time, dating back to times where Amiga had still some market penetration, and it manages a variety of hardware solutions.
SAGA is a proprietary hardware/register interface that does not follow any existing solutions. That does not exclude that P96 may drive it if a driver exists, of course. It is an interface on a much lower level, and with a much smaller target. IOWs, by using the software interface layer like P96, you have a wider platform as the software will then work on any existing RTG hardware, though the interface is necessarily the common denominator of several hardware solutions. With SAGA, you solely depend on the will of its creator - who has shown that he doesn't care about existing specs like AutoConf, the F-BootRom or the MMU. |
12 October 2021, 11:23 | #23 |
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12 October 2021, 11:58 | #24 | |
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Standards are there, they have existed for a long time and are proven and time-tested after decades of use - but they don't want to use them because they have an insufferable case of "not invented here"-itis. Which is totally unacceptable in an already fragmented niche like the Amiga. |
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12 October 2021, 12:45 | #25 |
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As far as I know SAGA, which is part of the Apollo Core, isn't open source but if so it wouldn't change anything or much. Thinks maybe would change if you bring Apollo hardware to nearly all Amiga users and at least all developers.
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12 October 2021, 12:47 | #26 |
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You do not need to use any of the new saga features, I use my vampire as a standard acc. card with gfx card included... Works very well and the best solution that is available for a desktop Amiga ...
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12 October 2021, 14:51 | #27 | |||||
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SAGA is open-source? Since when? Quote:
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It's in state [UNDER CONSTRUCTION]. |
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12 October 2021, 15:19 | #28 |
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This seems to be the general trend, any small opinion based disagreement creates a huge divide. I can understand both camps and also think there is common ground; Amiga.
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12 October 2021, 17:23 | #29 | ||
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However, let's compare the hardware for a while: for other Amiga extensions, you can query the expansion.library, and load the appropriate driver for it. For SAGA - not. You need some proprietary logic to detect it, which may or may not change. So one of the beaties of AmigaOs goes away - scalability. P5 hardware had exactly the same issues. You did not know how it operated, you did not know how to detect it, and it was not compatible to anything else. It required proprietary tools to run it and maintain it, and its author was bad in communication. History repeats, apparently. |
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12 October 2021, 17:33 | #30 |
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12 October 2021, 17:38 | #31 |
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12 October 2021, 17:38 | #32 |
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Unless you need some debug tools for development, in which case only the Vampire-specific toolchain will do. Generic tools won't.
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12 October 2021, 18:06 | #33 | |
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http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=5768 EDIT: Wow, that post was from 2017. I didn't think it had been that long. |
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12 October 2021, 19:01 | #34 | |
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I know that SAGA is hardware (not fully, but well) and RTG is software, please mind that I was explaining it to Clebin. I'm comparing groups of users. Yes, it can be done - which is bigger userbase, RTG software or SAGA hardware. And that's what I mean in this case, including that SAGA have RTG drivers. |
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12 October 2021, 19:09 | #35 | |
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Does P96 support drivers where access to the hardware (~framebuffer) is always and only done by the driver itself but never ever by P96 core itself (i.e. no things like direct access to framebuffer by P96 core for things like migration between RAM and VRAM)? |
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12 October 2021, 19:44 | #36 | |
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I maintain that it doesn't and I think you're living in the past by making a hard & fast distinction between hardware and software, when that is not how things operate in the retro world today. All of the products I mentioned - Minimig AGA, ZZ9000, Vampire, Pistorm, Buffee, UAE - are infinitely modifiable and programmable. It doesn't matter that Pistorm is emulation and Vampire is FPGA. If the ZZ9000 wants to support SAGA, then provided it fits in the FPGA, it can support it 5 years from now. That's nothing like how hardware used to be. |
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12 October 2021, 20:11 | #37 | |
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But You still miss that SAGA is not open-source, and it probably not happens in near future. For me reason why it's still not open-source yet is clear - V-Team don't want share "this cake" with anyone. |
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12 October 2021, 20:46 | #38 | ||
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But I think I’ve made my points here. I don’t think I’ve ever painted a rosy picture of SAGA’s future, but I’m not going to join in the black & white Vampire=good/Vampire=evil division that this always seems to turn into. Last edited by clebin; 12 October 2021 at 20:51. |
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12 October 2021, 21:18 | #39 | |
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Nonlinear frame buffers (as for the Retina Z2) are not supported (anymore). |
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13 October 2021, 05:42 | #40 |
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I thought there was a P96 driver for classic chipsets now? So if you targeted P96, basically as long as you had a compatible screenmode you could target everything ECS or AGA and forward that that had a P96 driver?
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