What do you get with increasing (FastRAM) memory amounts on the Amiga?

Xebec · 23 May 2021, 17:21

Hey all!

I'm just curious, what do different memory amounts typically "get you" on an Amiga 500 or 1200? Yes this is a pretty open ended question, but like with chipRAM I know you want to max out 2MB to load almost all WHDLoad games or demos. What about FastRAM?

i.e.

Does 64MB allow you to do something that 16MB or 32MB doesn't?

I assume if you were using NetSurf you might be able to hit certain websites (very slowly) that you couldn't with less memory.

Also, How low can you go to run pretty much any game that a higher clocked 68020/68030+AGA chipset can run? Is 4MB fast ram enough? more?

What else?

Thanks!

lesta_smsc · 23 May 2021, 17:54

I've just installed an 8MB card into A1200 and very pleased with it. It gives a modest improvement in speed too! For WHDLoad it is perfect. Considering I was making some games run on a stock stock A600 which has 2MB this is incredible upgrade! Next step is to find a more loaded CF image to make it even better

For my general purposes this is sufficient.

Samurai_Crow · 23 May 2021, 18:01

Adding Fast RAM doubles the bandwidth of the Amiga 1200 and speeds up an A500 to a lesser degree. The main advantage is that the chipset goes faster when it doesn't need to share Chip RAM with the CPU. As long as you have enough Fast RAM to hold the program you are trying to run and any data that doesn't need the chipset to access it, you're fine.

As you get more Fast RAM you can use WHDLoad or something similar to avoid disk swapping and store games on a flash memory or hard drive. Likewise, an accelerator does little or no good without up-to-date Fast RAM to supply memory bandwidth.

zipper · 23 May 2021, 18:09

RAM is most beneficial on emulating, was fun to run PC-Task on my A500 with 060 steroids / 132 MB and RTG, both PC-Task and Shapeshifter.

hooverphonique · 23 May 2021, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow

The main advantage is that the chipset goes faster when it doesn't need to share Chip RAM with the CPU

It is mostly the other way round - it can help avoiding the cpu being slowed down by memory cycles used by the chipset.

Mathesar · 23 May 2021, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xebec

Hey all!
Does 64MB allow you to do something that 16MB or 32MB doesn't?

I guess it depends. To run many of the old stuff 16MB (or even less) is plenty. However, some newer 3D game ports require more than that. Also, when you want to run a web browser on the Amiga you'll also find yourself running out of ram pretty quickly.

So, i'd say for older stuff 8..16MB.
For newer stuff 32MB or more.

Lord Aga · 24 May 2021, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesta_smsc

It gives a modest improvement in speed too!

Hey, it's more than double

I wouldn't call that modest.

Just imagine the pee-pee gain of that magnitude

Daedalus · 24 May 2021, 11:19

Indeed, having fast RAM means the CPU can use fast RAM while the custom chips are using chip RAM, which means less time wasted by the CPU waiting (because most custom chip operations have priority over the CPU). Chipset operations themselves are largely unaffected by fast RAM and continue at the same speed as they did before.

The real-world difference ultimately depends on the type of game or program being run. If the game spends most of its time doing chipset-related things, there probably won't be a hugely noticeable difference. If the game is very CPU intensive, you'll see a big difference in speed.

However, unlike some other platforms, more fast RAM doesn't make things faster because the Amiga doesn't normally use virtual memory. Once you have any fast RAM installed, that's as fast as it's going to get (until you fill it and drop back to using chip RAM again...). There's not a great deal that uses large amounts of RAM - preloading some large games with WHDLoad are one possibility, though the vast majority would still fit in 16MB. As said though, lots of fast RAM can be useful for emulation. You can add a nice chunk of RAM to a virtual Mac, for example, and play some of the larger games that never made it to the Amiga.

Jope · 24 May 2021, 11:20

It's also useful when working with the Amiga. I tend to dump all kinds of temp files into RAM: all the time. More RAM = more temp! :-)

daxb · 24 May 2021, 12:16

I would say the more RAM the better. Fragmentation can slow it down a bit and unfortunately the software does a "good" job in fragmenting it. A reserve of some MB is always good or needed to don't get in trouble. If you have some MB free for buffer/cache and such stuff the system can become faster.

As Jope wrote if you work with RAM (RamDisk) you soon want more. For example, I unpack everything to RAM to work with. It's much faster then HD, it's temporary, and you don need to waste space on HD. You also save some unnecessary write access but that isn't that important.

Jope · 24 May 2021, 13:05

I ended up allocating my ZZ9000's RAM as another RAM disk because I don't want any code executing from there ever, but don't mind the slower RAM as a RAM disk. :-)

Warty · 24 May 2021, 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

I ended up allocating my ZZ9000's RAM as another RAM disk because I don't want any code executing from there ever, but don't mind the slower RAM as a RAM disk. :-)

Would you mind elaborating on that? As someone considering buying a ZZ9000, one of the advantages for me would be the extra ram. I only have 5MB in my 3000 right now. What are the disadvantages to the ram on the ZZ9000?

daxb · 24 May 2021, 18:16

It is slow as hell because the access is through zorro II/III port. Fastram need to be connected next to the CPU to be fast.

Jope · 24 May 2021, 19:32

Yep. I have a BigRAM Z3 in my A3000 and it feels like a noticeable slowdown once the 16MB of motherboard RAM is used up.

I think I'll do a similar trick to that, allocate at least half of the BigRAM for a RAM disk and then I will have more of the mobo RAM available for running code.

Xebec · 25 May 2021, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus

There's not a great deal that uses large amounts of RAM - preloading some large games with WHDLoad are one possibility, though the vast majority would still fit in 16MB. As said though, lots of fast RAM can be useful for emulation. You can add a nice chunk of RAM to a virtual Mac, for example, and play some of the larger games that never made it to the Amiga.

OK - this is a very interesting use of 'more' RAM that I was curious about - both the WHDLoad preload and the Mac emulation.

Are the larger later 68K Mac games playable on a higher clock 68030 or are they generally 040/060 only games?

Warty · 25 May 2021, 05:14

Ah. Thanks folks. That makes total sense, I think I had convinced myself that a Zorro III slot was like an A1000/A500 expansion slot (which I assume, perhaps again incorrectly, was as fast as having RAM right next to the CPU, because it was basically straight CPU pins).

A couple of links if anyone is in my boat:
https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=28865.0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Zorro_III

Jope · 25 May 2021, 06:39

It's true, Zorro III is further detached from the CPU than AmigaBUS/ZorroII.

23 May 2021, 17:21	#1
Xebec Registered User Join Date: May 2016 Location: Philadelphia, USA Posts: 67	What do you get with increasing (FastRAM) memory amounts on the Amiga? Hey all! I'm just curious, what do different memory amounts typically "get you" on an Amiga 500 or 1200? Yes this is a pretty open ended question, but like with chipRAM I know you want to max out 2MB to load almost all WHDLoad games or demos. What about FastRAM? i.e. Does 64MB allow you to do something that 16MB or 32MB doesn't? I assume if you were using NetSurf you might be able to hit certain websites (very slowly) that you couldn't with less memory. Also, How low can you go to run pretty much any game that a higher clocked 68020/68030+AGA chipset can run? Is 4MB fast ram enough? more? What else? Thanks!

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23 May 2021, 17:54	#2
lesta_smsc Registered User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,173	I've just installed an 8MB card into A1200 and very pleased with it. It gives a modest improvement in speed too! For WHDLoad it is perfect. Considering I was making some games run on a stock stock A600 which has 2MB this is incredible upgrade! Next step is to find a more loaded CF image to make it even better For my general purposes this is sufficient.

23 May 2021, 18:01	#3
Samurai_Crow Total Chaos forever! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Waterville, MN, USA Age: 49 Posts: 2,186	Adding Fast RAM doubles the bandwidth of the Amiga 1200 and speeds up an A500 to a lesser degree. The main advantage is that the chipset goes faster when it doesn't need to share Chip RAM with the CPU. As long as you have enough Fast RAM to hold the program you are trying to run and any data that doesn't need the chipset to access it, you're fine. As you get more Fast RAM you can use WHDLoad or something similar to avoid disk swapping and store games on a flash memory or hard drive. Likewise, an accelerator does little or no good without up-to-date Fast RAM to supply memory bandwidth.

23 May 2021, 18:09	#4
zipper Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: finland Posts: 1,837	RAM is most beneficial on emulating, was fun to run PC-Task on my A500 with 060 steroids / 132 MB and RTG, both PC-Task and Shapeshifter.

24 May 2021, 11:19	#8
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,334	Indeed, having fast RAM means the CPU can use fast RAM while the custom chips are using chip RAM, which means less time wasted by the CPU waiting (because most custom chip operations have priority over the CPU). Chipset operations themselves are largely unaffected by fast RAM and continue at the same speed as they did before. The real-world difference ultimately depends on the type of game or program being run. If the game spends most of its time doing chipset-related things, there probably won't be a hugely noticeable difference. If the game is very CPU intensive, you'll see a big difference in speed. However, unlike some other platforms, more fast RAM doesn't make things faster because the Amiga doesn't normally use virtual memory. Once you have any fast RAM installed, that's as fast as it's going to get (until you fill it and drop back to using chip RAM again...). There's not a great deal that uses large amounts of RAM - preloading some large games with WHDLoad are one possibility, though the vast majority would still fit in 16MB. As said though, lots of fast RAM can be useful for emulation. You can add a nice chunk of RAM to a virtual Mac, for example, and play some of the larger games that never made it to the Amiga.

24 May 2021, 11:20	#9
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	It's also useful when working with the Amiga. I tend to dump all kinds of temp files into RAM: all the time. More RAM = more temp! :-)

24 May 2021, 12:16	#10
daxb Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 3,303	I would say the more RAM the better. Fragmentation can slow it down a bit and unfortunately the software does a "good" job in fragmenting it. A reserve of some MB is always good or needed to don't get in trouble. If you have some MB free for buffer/cache and such stuff the system can become faster. As Jope wrote if you work with RAM (RamDisk) you soon want more. For example, I unpack everything to RAM to work with. It's much faster then HD, it's temporary, and you don need to waste space on HD. You also save some unnecessary write access but that isn't that important.

24 May 2021, 13:05	#11
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	I ended up allocating my ZZ9000's RAM as another RAM disk because I don't want any code executing from there ever, but don't mind the slower RAM as a RAM disk. :-)

24 May 2021, 18:16	#13
daxb Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 3,303	It is slow as hell because the access is through zorro II/III port. Fastram need to be connected next to the CPU to be fast.

24 May 2021, 19:32	#14
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	Yep. I have a BigRAM Z3 in my A3000 and it feels like a noticeable slowdown once the 16MB of motherboard RAM is used up. I think I'll do a similar trick to that, allocate at least half of the BigRAM for a RAM disk and then I will have more of the mobo RAM available for running code.

25 May 2021, 05:14	#16
Warty Registered User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Minneapolis, USA Posts: 301	Ah. Thanks folks. That makes total sense, I think I had convinced myself that a Zorro III slot was like an A1000/A500 expansion slot (which I assume, perhaps again incorrectly, was as fast as having RAM right next to the CPU, because it was basically straight CPU pins). A couple of links if anyone is in my boat: https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=28865.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Zorro_III

25 May 2021, 06:39	#17
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	It's true, Zorro III is further detached from the CPU than AmigaBUS/ZorroII.

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