The RIGHT resolution for chipset modes

Gaula92 · 29 April 2009, 13:10

Hello there!

With WinUAE in fullscreen, I am using custom 720x576@50hz and 1440x576@50hz modes I have to write manually in the config files (It would be a great idea to add it as a selectable resolution, Toni), then I have to fiddle with the scaler to center, etc.
Those modes are great, and my Amiga experience is the same as with my trusty 1200, with smooth graphics, perfect 50Hz scroll, zero sound delay with ASIO in the betas, etc...

The problem is that those modes are kinda blurry in my LCD monitor (Samsung 711MP), and I would like something sharper. Defining 640x480@50hz doesn't work, since most LCD monitors will default to 640x480@60hz instead...

The native resolution for this monitor is 1280x1024, but defining a 1280x1024@50hz mode makes the monitor default to 60Hz.

Theese LCD monitors we have nowadays can display 50Hz modes on a 60HZ refresh speed, and that's what they'll fo for most 50Hz user-defined modes. I only found those 720x756@50hz and 1440x756@50hz , and the monitor respects those two, diplaying in REAL 50Hz.

What 50Hz modes are supported in nowadays LCD monitors? What 50Hz modes are you guys using with your WinUAE?

Ehm...I don't need answers like "I use crt monitors", "I use 100Hz modes" or some other offtopic. I am looking for people on the EXACT 50HZ wagon, just like me. What about 640x512@50hz? It seems to be a doubled 640x256@50hz, wich is supposed to be the native WB mode... but my monitor can't display those. On the other hand, native Amiga low-res modes means blurry display since native monitor res is a lot higher...

Ideas...?

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 13:47

I stopped caring about vsync. Maybe when standard LCDs can do 100Hz it is possible again.. (or perhaps DisplayPort is another future solution, it apparently has much more flexible way to refresh display like allowing partial updates etc.. No more CRT-style scanning "emulation".)

Personally I have noticed that low resolution images scale quite nicely on high resolution monitors (full hd or larger), no more blurry crap like with smaller LCDs if you set WinUAE resolution to native res and use direct3d to scale it. Display internal scaling usually looks worse.

Gaula92 · 30 April 2009, 14:13

You should care, as 50HZ mode ARE POSSIBLE in most Lcd's I've tried.
The problem is that custom modes aren't selectable from the WinUAE menu, a custom option for fullscreen modes would be great, as it's for windosed modes.
Perfect 50Hz scroll IS possible with today's technology, just a bit blurry

Vsync however is not that good: WinUAE has a nice double-buffered display in fullscreen mode by default, that is REALLY great and avoids stalls/pauses caused by the vsync option, while giving PERFECT scroll.

I see I am alone in the custom 50hz resolution solution around here...ok, ok, but you guys should try it: it's the same as a real Amiga.

Rabbit80 · 30 April 2009, 14:27

I use 720x576@50Hz as well (Since my "monitor" is actually a TV)

The problem I have is that my TV won't display 50Hz through VGA so I have to use HDMI and in Vista x64 I get tearing (most noticable on vertical scrolling) no matter what vsync setting

- I have no issues with tearing in XP.

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaula88@hotmail

The problem is that custom modes aren't selectable from the WinUAE menu, a custom option for fullscreen modes would be great, as it's for windosed modes.

This has nothing to do with WinUAE. Either driver supports 50Hz or not.

I don't care about 50hz vsync because it is not officially supported. I am not interested in patching/modifying/whatever drivers.

Mad-Matt · 30 April 2009, 14:32

If you get an lcd with video inputs, it will generaly have some 50Hz modes built in at various resolutions (screen size dependant) that appear in the display lists.

On my Benq FP241w, by default I have access to 50 Hz modes upto 1280x720. I can add 1080p 50Hz in the ati prefs so the monitor it self has to do very little scaling.

However blur isnt defeated as the emu just does it instead of the interal screen scaling.

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 14:38

The point still remains: WinUAE has NOTHING to do with 50Hz support. Either you have 50Hz capable display/driver/os combination or you do not have it.

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad-Matt

However blur isnt defeated as the emu just does it instead of the interal screen scaling.

I don't see any obvious blur at 1920x1080 direct3d (32bit point) with 50Hz, autoscale enabled. (HDMI)

Gaula92 · 30 April 2009, 16:21

Toni, I see you point, but the resolution WinUAE allows to select for fullscreen modes are NOT the ones available for 50HZ in most LCD monitors: 720x576@50 or 1440x576@50hz aren't listed, among other common 50Hz modes.
Those custom modes don't need modified drivers, only some modeline definitions on the registry with an application souch as DTD Calculator that is recommended even in the official Intel forums.

So I believe providing an option for those custom modes is necessary: with those modes available, some of us can get a perfect amiga experience. You don't need to put those modes manually, but allowing free mode input, same as windowed modes. I am getting those modes by forcing them manually in my winUAE config files, but if I enter the menu and make a change in the display section, WinUAE will overwrite my custom mode, forcong me to exit, rewrite it and enter back... Still feeling it's a bad idea?

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 16:24

If driver does not report the resolution/rate combination when asked for supported modes = it does not exist. Thats how it is supposed to work.

Freely editable fullscreen resolution field: users think they can put anything there and it is supported in fullscreen. Which isn't true.

Gaula92 · 30 April 2009, 17:01

Toni, with all my respect:

If a user tries to execute an Amiga program and Windows says "you can execute my ass" = Amiga programs can't run on a Windows PC.

Now, thanks to WinUAE, we can execute them. Thanks to the original UAE authosr and your work, we can do it. Microsoft doesn't care. we just do it even if it's IMPOSSIBLE as you install windows.

Now again, we can't select modes not reported by the driver, but who cares? We can use those modes anyway thanks to powerstrip, dtd calculator, etc....
Anyway, WinUAE is fine as it is and your work is impressive. It's just that we shouldn't accept those limitations so easily: we are overcoming them everyday.

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 17:12

I can "support" manually edited config files (without overwriting manually set resolution if written using WinUAE) but I NEVER support any features in GUI that is not officially supported OS feature.

It will end in pain, sooner or later. Like when next service pack or OS version gets released.

Perhaps this is directx weirdness and perhaps resolution is available using some other API. Do you see the "custom" resolution in Windows desktop resolution dialog for example?

(usual pre-emptive warning to everyone: any stupid OS talk here = insta lock)

Rabbit80 · 30 April 2009, 17:19

I have had situations where I can select screenmodes in Windows which WinUAE does not support - maybe I will post some screenies later on if I get chance... (Not at home till after 11pm though - might have to leave till tomorrow night!)

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbit80

I have had situations where I can select screenmodes in Windows which WinUAE does not support - maybe I will post some screenies later on if I get chance... (Not at home till after 11pm though - might have to leave till tomorrow night!)

I don't need any screenshots. Just confirmation that at least SOME program shows the resolution that is missing in WinUAE's list (which means there must be another API to get those "missing" resolutions)

Gaula92 · 30 April 2009, 17:26

Toni & Rabbit: Yes, I can see those resolutions in the graphics configuration menu. I can even set my desktop to 720x576@50hz!
Oh, I won't say anything about OSes, like I prefer Macin..ehm...just kidding!

Toni Wilen · 30 April 2009, 18:35

Try http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip perhaps EnumDisplaySettings () returns more modes.. (modelist in GUI is now merged list from DirectX and EnumDisplaySettings)

Gaula92 · 03 May 2009, 23:09

No luck, Toni. I am still stuck without my custom modes. As I said, I can even set my desktop to those modes, please ask me for screenshots if you need them. Thanks!

Toni Wilen · 04 May 2009, 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaula88@hotmail

No luck, Toni. I am still stuck without my custom modes. As I said, I can even set my desktop to those modes, please ask me for screenshots if you need them. Thanks!

Download latest beta and attach/email/whatever winuaebootlog.txt.

Gaula92 · 04 May 2009, 22:19

well, here's the latest winuae boot log; my custom 50Hz aren't detected, it seems..

Rabbit80 · 04 May 2009, 22:26

Maybe an issue with Intel Express chipsets? My issue was the same chipset!

29 April 2009, 13:10	#1
Gaula92 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 527	The RIGHT resolution for chipset modes Hello there! With WinUAE in fullscreen, I am using custom 720x576@50hz and 1440x576@50hz modes I have to write manually in the config files (It would be a great idea to add it as a selectable resolution, Toni), then I have to fiddle with the scaler to center, etc. Those modes are great, and my Amiga experience is the same as with my trusty 1200, with smooth graphics, perfect 50Hz scroll, zero sound delay with ASIO in the betas, etc... The problem is that those modes are kinda blurry in my LCD monitor (Samsung 711MP), and I would like something sharper. Defining 640x480@50hz doesn't work, since most LCD monitors will default to 640x480@60hz instead... The native resolution for this monitor is 1280x1024, but defining a 1280x1024@50hz mode makes the monitor default to 60Hz. Theese LCD monitors we have nowadays can display 50Hz modes on a 60HZ refresh speed, and that's what they'll fo for most 50Hz user-defined modes. I only found those 720x756@50hz and 1440x756@50hz , and the monitor respects those two, diplaying in REAL 50Hz. What 50Hz modes are supported in nowadays LCD monitors? What 50Hz modes are you guys using with your WinUAE? Ehm...I don't need answers like "I use crt monitors", "I use 100Hz modes" or some other offtopic. I am looking for people on the EXACT 50HZ wagon, just like me. What about 640x512@50hz? It seems to be a doubled 640x256@50hz, wich is supposed to be the native WB mode... but my monitor can't display those. On the other hand, native Amiga low-res modes means blurry display since native monitor res is a lot higher... Ideas...?

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30 April 2009, 13:47	#2
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,574	I stopped caring about vsync. Maybe when standard LCDs can do 100Hz it is possible again.. (or perhaps DisplayPort is another future solution, it apparently has much more flexible way to refresh display like allowing partial updates etc.. No more CRT-style scanning "emulation".) Personally I have noticed that low resolution images scale quite nicely on high resolution monitors (full hd or larger), no more blurry crap like with smaller LCDs if you set WinUAE resolution to native res and use direct3d to scale it. Display internal scaling usually looks worse.

30 April 2009, 14:13	#3
Gaula92 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 527	You should care, as 50HZ mode ARE POSSIBLE in most Lcd's I've tried. The problem is that custom modes aren't selectable from the WinUAE menu, a custom option for fullscreen modes would be great, as it's for windosed modes. Perfect 50Hz scroll IS possible with today's technology, just a bit blurry Vsync however is not that good: WinUAE has a nice double-buffered display in fullscreen mode by default, that is REALLY great and avoids stalls/pauses caused by the vsync option, while giving PERFECT scroll. I see I am alone in the custom 50hz resolution solution around here...ok, ok, but you guys should try it: it's the same as a real Amiga.

30 April 2009, 14:27	#4
Rabbit80 Its hard being famous! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Gateway to the dales, UK Age: 44 Posts: 633	I use 720x576@50Hz as well (Since my "monitor" is actually a TV) The problem I have is that my TV won't display 50Hz through VGA so I have to use HDMI and in Vista x64 I get tearing (most noticable on vertical scrolling) no matter what vsync setting - I have no issues with tearing in XP.

30 April 2009, 14:32	#6
Mad-Matt Longplayer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Lincoln / UK Age: 45 Posts: 1,860	If you get an lcd with video inputs, it will generaly have some 50Hz modes built in at various resolutions (screen size dependant) that appear in the display lists. On my Benq FP241w, by default I have access to 50 Hz modes upto 1280x720. I can add 1080p 50Hz in the ati prefs so the monitor it self has to do very little scaling. However blur isnt defeated as the emu just does it instead of the interal screen scaling.

30 April 2009, 14:38	#7
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,574	The point still remains: WinUAE has NOTHING to do with 50Hz support. Either you have 50Hz capable display/driver/os combination or you do not have it.

30 April 2009, 16:21	#9
Gaula92 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 527	Toni, I see you point, but the resolution WinUAE allows to select for fullscreen modes are NOT the ones available for 50HZ in most LCD monitors: 720x576@50 or 1440x576@50hz aren't listed, among other common 50Hz modes. Those custom modes don't need modified drivers, only some modeline definitions on the registry with an application souch as DTD Calculator that is recommended even in the official Intel forums. So I believe providing an option for those custom modes is necessary: with those modes available, some of us can get a perfect amiga experience. You don't need to put those modes manually, but allowing free mode input, same as windowed modes. I am getting those modes by forcing them manually in my winUAE config files, but if I enter the menu and make a change in the display section, WinUAE will overwrite my custom mode, forcong me to exit, rewrite it and enter back... Still feeling it's a bad idea?

30 April 2009, 16:24	#10
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,574	If driver does not report the resolution/rate combination when asked for supported modes = it does not exist. Thats how it is supposed to work. Freely editable fullscreen resolution field: users think they can put anything there and it is supported in fullscreen. Which isn't true.

30 April 2009, 17:01	#11
Gaula92 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 527	Toni, with all my respect: If a user tries to execute an Amiga program and Windows says "you can execute my ass" = Amiga programs can't run on a Windows PC. Now, thanks to WinUAE, we can execute them. Thanks to the original UAE authosr and your work, we can do it. Microsoft doesn't care. we just do it even if it's IMPOSSIBLE as you install windows. Now again, we can't select modes not reported by the driver, but who cares? We can use those modes anyway thanks to powerstrip, dtd calculator, etc.... Anyway, WinUAE is fine as it is and your work is impressive. It's just that we shouldn't accept those limitations so easily: we are overcoming them everyday.

30 April 2009, 17:12	#12
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,574	I can "support" manually edited config files (without overwriting manually set resolution if written using WinUAE) but I NEVER support any features in GUI that is not officially supported OS feature. It will end in pain, sooner or later. Like when next service pack or OS version gets released. Perhaps this is directx weirdness and perhaps resolution is available using some other API. Do you see the "custom" resolution in Windows desktop resolution dialog for example? (usual pre-emptive warning to everyone: any stupid OS talk here = insta lock)

30 April 2009, 17:19	#13
Rabbit80 Its hard being famous! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Gateway to the dales, UK Age: 44 Posts: 633	I have had situations where I can select screenmodes in Windows which WinUAE does not support - maybe I will post some screenies later on if I get chance... (Not at home till after 11pm though - might have to leave till tomorrow night!)

30 April 2009, 17:26	#15
Gaula92 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 527	Toni & Rabbit: Yes, I can see those resolutions in the graphics configuration menu. I can even set my desktop to 720x576@50hz! Oh, I won't say anything about OSes, like I prefer Macin..ehm...just kidding!

30 April 2009, 18:35	#16
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,574	Try http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip perhaps EnumDisplaySettings () returns more modes.. (modelist in GUI is now merged list from DirectX and EnumDisplaySettings)

03 May 2009, 23:09	#17
Gaula92 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 527	No luck, Toni. I am still stuck without my custom modes. As I said, I can even set my desktop to those modes, please ask me for screenshots if you need them. Thanks!

04 May 2009, 22:26	#20
Rabbit80 Its hard being famous! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Gateway to the dales, UK Age: 44 Posts: 633	Maybe an issue with Intel Express chipsets? My issue was the same chipset!

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