new amiga 500 doom like !

[rothers]

I think the scrolling on the sky is too fast too, but it's not a big deal. I assume the background will change during the game? Moon, space, etc?

As eXelet0 says that complex structure above the alien looks amazing, it's beyond any Amiga demo at this point. Like something that should not be possible.

Is it the BSPtree speeding that up?

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Mathesar

https://wearaltair.com/

Lol, wow didn't know this existed
I can say you got the Altair name correct but not the logo (it's not the same). Basically it's KK's group logo

Originally Posted by jb2815

This is really great! Will the demo include the Dreadtool to play around with creating maps?

Depends on the state of the tool when the Demo will be out. I'll let KK answer this one.

@All about clouds:
Thanks guys
We're taking this feedback under consideration.

[Nishicorn]

It looks impressive - I didn't really think this would be feasible with Amiga 500.

However, there are a few things I'd like to point out, and hopefully people won't chew me up like they did anyone who dared raise any kind of criticism in this thread (is this a discussion board or a fanboy echo chamber where you are only allowed to praise and worship?)..

1) It's not really a Doom-Clone, if it doesn't replicate Doom. Amiga 500 can't do that, so it'd be best to call this something like 'Wolfenstein 3D-clone with Doom-inspired visuals'.

What separates 'Doom-clones' from' Wolf3d-clones', are things like textures on ceilings and floors and multiple heights (stairs, pits, different elevations, etc.)

Ever since mid-1990s, I got exhausted checking all the supposed 'Doom-clones', only to realize they're 'Wolf3D-clones' at best. This might as well be called 'Quake-clone', it'd be about as accurate a term.

2) The graphics look awfully grey and colorless for some reason. I know the Amiga 500 can't give you the 256 colors the old VGA/MCGA could, but this shouldn't mean color should be always change to grey.

3) How are 'sliding doors' some kind of new feature? Doom already has sliding doors. They're just sliding vertically. What does the player benefit from this being changed to horizontal direction? It's the same thing, just in a different direction. This is a neutral change, not an improvement per se. Of course, if the doors can slide in both directions, then it's an 'improvement' (though I still don't get why it's necessary or beneficial for the player).

4) It's kind of a cool project to cram something so 'impossible' to Amiga 500, but at the same time, Doom and Wolf3D already exist as actual ports for the Amiga - also, you could (and still can) play both on a Mac-emulator even before those ports existed (though a bit pointless on a 030, unless you have a dedicated hard drive partition for that).

I played Doom on my Amiga in mid-1990s, and enjoyed it immensely.

5) Other 'Doom-clones' already exist for the Amiga (albeit not Amiga 500), Alien Breed 3D being the best of the bunch. Most Amiga enthusiasts probably own an AGA-based Amiga, even if they also have Amiga 500s (or any Amiga variation(s)), so the obvious thing to do would be to play 'Doom', 'AB3D' and such games on the AGA-Amiga, and leave Amiga 500 to be the 2D marvel it was designed to be. You'd get the best of both worlds, without having to make any compromises.

6) This type of projects often reach a point where they impress people, and then they fizzle out, due to the massive amount of motivation needed to actually not only finish a game, but to also polish the gameplay and spend countless hours just honing some mundane details no one is ever going to see or notice (the 'invisible' changes that make a game brilliant, without it ever being obvious to the player).

When people have been sufficiently impressed, the people working on the project have their 'fix', and they know there would be 'diminishing returns' as to how impressed people would get - the amount of work would become a mountain very quickly, just to get 'a few more gasps' out of the audience, and at some point, the juice isn't always worth the squeeze anymore.

Also, other projects can start becoming more tempting, once the 'concept has been proven'. The energy and work required to make it even 10% as playable as Doom or Wolfenstein 3D is often too much. It's easy to get enthusiastic about a project, but it's also easy to lose interest when time goes on (I have started probably thousands of projects, and finished barely a handful, so I know from experience how these things can go).

7) Beyond 'proof of concept' - which is an admirable thing to do, and what has been done is incredibly impressive - is there really a point to making a Wolf3D-clone for the Amiga 500, when Atari ST already has an actual Wolf3D running on a relatively stock machine (correct me, if I am wrong), Wolf3D and Doom can both be played on pretty much any relatively modern device so easily, Alien Breed 3D exists (and probably can't be topped in gameplay, in my opinion), and so many good games, 3D or otherwise, are instantly playable in the modern times..?

I mean, if the real reason is that 'Amiga 500 doesn't yet have this type of game', maybe it can work.

But somehow this reminds me of the Atari 8-bit scene vs. the C64 8-bit scene; both are trying to recreate or mimic each other's strengths, instead of utilizing their own strengths optimally. For example, Rescue on Fractalus and Yoomp! on the Atari are good examples of Atari's 3D power - while C64 side has brilliant, smoothly scrolling 2D games, like Turricans and Impossible Mission and all the shooters and adventure games and such.

So trying to make an 'Atari-style 3D game' on the C64 is a bit pointless effort, because 3D is not C64's strength the same way it is Atari's. Or to make something that requires lots of colors (Atari's color palette is massive by comparison to C64's 16 colors).

In the same vein, trying to re-create something like Turrican II on the Atari 8-bit is equally pointless effort, because it doesn't play to Atari's strengths, and thus can never really be as good as on the C64 side.

So this reminds me of a similar 'walking against the wind' instead of 'flowing with the current' situation, where people are forcing something to exist on a machine, whose strengths do not support that something at all.

This kind of effort is commendable and impressive, but I have to be philosophical sometimes and wonder about the point. Even Alien Breed 3D had to make compromises, but it still managed to work (just barely) - although its early demo had much more interesting visuals and atmosphere with more 'creepy' and 'realistic' 'alien creatures' instead of the cartoony gun wielders we got.

Amiga 500-version of a Wolfenstein 3D-clone is going to have to make so many compromises, that even with good fps and good-looking visuals and good gameplay, you have to wonder if it'd be a more interesting experience to just play Doom or AB3D instead.

It's a bit like the old LGR Atari ST review; a nice machine, but often, when playing something, you're thinking of a better version of that game on a different platform (=Amiga).

Unless this game has something really special, like amazing atmosphere (which AB3D already has), or super tight and sublime gameplay (which Doom already has), I wonder if the player isn't thinking the same thing after the initial enthusiasm has worn off..

P.S. For an ENGLISH Amiga Board, people sure can't write english. "to big", "sneak peak", "I didn't felt". Come on, english is an easy language by comparison to many other languages.

It's "too big", "sneak peek" and "I didn't feel".

P.P.S. There's no excuse, english is not my native language, and yet I see native speakers butcher it every day. Information is at your fingertips, correct spelling is so easy to figure out and research, there's no excuse. Of course, this board's name could be changed to something other than 'english' - that'd probably be the easiest way to solve this problem..

P.P.P.S. I am not trying to be 'negative' (as if that's something forbidden somehow), I am simply pointing out a few things and offering viewpoints - this is basically meant to be food for thought, nothing more. I AM very impressed with what's been achieved, so please get me right.

Furthermore, there'd never be any meaningful discussion, if everyone always had to be "positive" about everything. All sides of a story should be heard and pondered, and discussed.

Also, there's such a thing as butt-kissing and false positivity.. constructive criticism can be very beneficial. People shouldn't praise something because they're afraid to say anything 'negative' about it, or because others praise something, or because they feel they're 'expected to do so'. People should freely speak their minds and raise questions about everything, only then will things ever improve, and only then will there ever be actual, proper, open discussion and exchange of ideas, which is called 'conversation'.

It's appalling how people treated that one individual that dared raise any 'opposite viewpoints' or alternate way of seeing things. They may not have worded things in the most sophisticated way, but they didn't use cursewords and I don't think they were overly crude or insulting. If it is 'waste of time' from their viewpoint, what's so insulting about saying it? It might not be waste of time from someone else's viewpoint.

It's also disturbing that no one actually tried to have a conversation and actually talk about the -points- they raised, they just slammed the messenger. It's true that this game has no ceiling or floor textures, and it seems it doesn't have stairs or heights, which disqualifies it as a 'Doom-clone'. Yet no one said anything about this particular point. Only that the commenter -dared- go against the masses and mention details about the Emperor's clothing..

I also think it's a valid point to raise concerns about Doom in 1993 having 256 colors, floor and ceiling textures, heights and complex maps, when it comes to enjoying a game that comes so much later and doesn't reach even near Doom's level of visuals - which were impressive in 1993, but wouldn't be today. So a player, whose eye has been spoiled by all kinds of modern wonders even since 1993, might feel a bit 'uneasy' playing this, even though the technical feat is obviously amazing and super impressive.

Raising this kind of point or concerns isn't insulting, it's a valid thought and concern that might manifest in actual reality for many players. After the initial 'wow'-factor has worn off, is this game going to have something to keep the player engaged that Doom or AB3D couldn't do? In my opinion, this is a valid point, and not insulting.

I realize it's not something you want to hear when you have worked so hard to bring the impossible to the humble Amiga 500, but from a player's perspective, it is a valid point and concern.

And yet that individual got slammed for raising it, as if anything but praise and worship is somehow 'insulting'.

People used to only get insulted when insult was actually meant, not when someone raises valid points.

Even the fathers of Amiga wondered if they should have chosen chunky mode instead, as the planar system was very fast and perfect for fewer colors, 2D stuff and the Amiga 500 back in the day, but with added colors, 3D stuff, texture mapping etc. would make chunky an immensely preferred system.

On the AGA side, C2P routines became really fast at some point, so even the Mac OS in a Mac-emulator could actually have faster screen update than Workbench in 256 colors. This is probably because planar 256 colors is just slower than chunky 256 colors in the same screenmode.

So this commenter talking about chunky and planar is another valid point that no one ever rebutted, they just tell everyone to 'ignore them' - but this is like George Lucas only hiring Yes-men to work for him, and look at the result.

When he worked on the original Star Wars-trilogy, he had to struggle and fight and often lost so he couldn't do everything he wanted the way he wanted it, and the result is that they are pretty good movies (the middle one being vastly superior to the others).

But when he made the episodes I-III, he didn't have to struggle. No one pointed any 'negative' points to him, no one dared criticize at all (they'd probably have been fired), and no one pointed out the madness to him, so he was able to completely and utterly ruin his own work.

This is what happens when you only have Yes-men around you and no criticism. So please take this post as a friendly, good-will, respectful criticism that simply raises some thoughts, points, viewpoints and valid concerns. Don't be a bunch of Lucases.

[rothers]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

It looks impressive - I didn't really think this would be feasible with Amiga 500.

However, there are a few things I'd like to point out...

fucking hell mate.

If you'd made any effort to catch up on what's going on maybe people would not be rolling their eyes at your post. It's riddled with errors.

[ESC]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

1) ...

Teaser from the latest video
https://i.imgur.com/wh5lOsR.png
Also Wolfenstein 3D only had straight walls, not angled ones.

4) ...

5) ...

Yes you could play those games on an upgraded AGA-machine before with very low framerates, thank you for pointing this out, I don't know what it has to do with this project since this is meant to be running on a A500, same with the comment about the other supposed Doom-clones. I don't know if you know this but a lot of people out there are still running A500's at home, you've got a skewed perspective thinking everyone has an upgraded AGA-machine at home.

6) ...

There's always a risk of interest fizzling out, especially with demotivating comments like this

7) ...

Basically "It's already been done on other machines, why even try on this one", also it's still not a Wolfenstein game dude.

P.S.

What is this grammar-Nazi shit, you know everyone hates people that are like this right? Who gives a crap, we know what people mean when they write it doesn't have to be perfect, no one cares but you.

P.P.P.S.

You are very much trying to be negative and demotivating, don't you even try to deny it.

But it was a nice attempt dude, it didn't bite on me though, still enthusiastic about this.

[Havie]

????

What a load of twaddle (I hope you understand this simple English word)!

Why bother creating anything new on the Amiga or attempt to push the boundaries is basically what you are saying.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Amazing work & great video. Thanx for your hard work, the advanced ceiling (the one above the "alien") looks more advanced than I thought we'd see in this engine and the redone textures really elevate it to a new level.

Exactly my thoughts, I forgot to point out.

Great job guys on these designs and look!
It elevates greatly look of the game.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

However, there are a few things I'd like to point out, and hopefully people won't chew me up like they did anyone who dared raise any kind of criticism in this thread

I'm not chewing you up, just pointing out a few things...

1) It's not really a Doom-Clone, if it doesn't replicate Doom. Amiga 500 can't do that, so it'd be best to call this something like 'Wolfenstein 3D-clone with Doom-inspired visuals'.

It's touted as being 'Doom-like', not a Doom clone. That's Doom-like as in having a similar 'atmosphere', not a similar engine (which obviously is impossible on a stock A500). I for one am looking forward to playing a 3D game that is not a Doom clone.

What separates 'Doom-clones' from' Wolf3d-clones', are things like textures on ceilings and floors and multiple heights (stairs, pits, different elevations, etc.)

I could be wrong here, but I understand Dread can have multiple levels - not that it would be a huge disappointment if it doesn't get them.

Ever since mid-1990s, I got exhausted checking all the supposed 'Doom-clones', only to realize they're 'Wolf3D-clones' at best. This might as well be called 'Quake-clone', it'd be about as accurate a term.

Who cares? You might as well say that all platform games are Donkey Kong clones.

2) The graphics look awfully grey and colorless for some reason. I know the Amiga 500 can't give you the 256 colors the old VGA/MCGA could, but this shouldn't mean color should be always change to grey.

I love the look of the graphics so far. Of course other levels may have a different theme, but I think the current textures and colors capture the mood well (unlike the cheesy graphics in Wolf3D).

3) How are 'sliding doors' some kind of new feature? Doom already has sliding doors. They're just sliding vertically. What does the player benefit from this being changed to horizontal direction? It's the same thing, just in a different direction. This is a neutral change, not an improvement per se. Of course, if the doors can slide in both directions, then it's an 'improvement' (though I still don't get why it's necessary or beneficial for the player).

It might be an improvement if you can slip through a door before it's fully open. Otherwise - who cares? It's different, and that in itself is a good thing.

4) It's kind of a cool project to cram something so 'impossible' to Amiga 500, but at the same time, Doom and Wolf3D already exist as actual ports for the Amiga - also, you could (and still can) play both on a Mac-emulator even before those ports existed (though a bit pointless on a 030, unless you have a dedicated hard drive partition for that).

Current Doom and Wolf3D ports need at least a 50MHz 030 and AGA chipset for reasonable speed, and despite optimization are not nearly as slick as Dread on a stock A500. Imagine what it will be like on even an unexpanded A1200! Besides we are sick of playing Wolf3D and Doom over and over. We want something different that shows what the Amiga can really do in 3D!

I played Doom on my Amiga in mid-1990s, and enjoyed it immensely.

I play Doom on my A1200 occasionally and it's enjoyable, but I can't get into it. Perhaps it's just too familiar, or perhaps it's the testosterone-fueled American He-man attitude that gets me. Don't know if Dread will be any different, but...

5) Other 'Doom-clones' already exist for the Amiga (albeit not Amiga 500), Alien Breed 3D being the best of the bunch. Most Amiga enthusiasts probably own an AGA-based Amiga, even if they also have Amiga 500s (or any Amiga variation(s)), so the obvious thing to do would be to play 'Doom', 'AB3D' and such games on the AGA-Amiga, and leave Amiga 500 to be the 2D marvel it was designed to be. You'd get the best of both worlds, without having to make any compromises.

Dare I say it, there are no A500 3D games that were any good - until now! Most A1200 3D games are also lacking. Dread may be one game that makes me use my neglected A500 more.

6) This type of projects often reach a point where they impress people, and then they fizzle out, due to the massive amount of motivation needed to actually not only finish a game, but to also polish the gameplay and spend countless hours just honing some mundane details no one is ever going to see or notice (the 'invisible' changes that make a game brilliant, without it ever being obvious to the player).

You are right. Let's hope that doesn't happen to this game! Of course if we all criticize the developer for 'wasting' his time on the A500 then...

When people have been sufficiently impressed, the people working on the project have their 'fix', and they know there would be 'diminishing returns' as to how impressed people would get - the amount of work would become a mountain very quickly, just to get 'a few more gasps' out of the audience, and at some point, the juice isn't always worth the squeeze anymore.

I think Dread is well past that point. If KK/Altair does get bored with it or burns out he can just release the source code and level editor and let others continue the project.

Also, other projects can start becoming more tempting, once the 'concept has been proven'. The energy and work required to make it even 10% as playable as Doom or Wolfenstein 3D is often too much. It's easy to get enthusiastic about a project, but it's also easy to lose interest when time goes on (I have started probably thousands of projects, and finished barely a handful, so I know from experience how these things can go).

This is all true, but it looks like Dread is easily as playable as Wofl3D already, and just needs some imaginative level design.

This reminds me of Tomb Raider. Just when it become obvious that the Core Design team was running out of inspiration they released the Tomb Raider Level Editor, inspiring amateurs to create some amazing levels that rival or even surpass the original games. Meanwhile Crystal Dynamics took over the commercial franchise and screwed up subsequent titles. Turns out that the original format, though technologically 'outdated', was all that was needed. In the same way a 'Wolf3D' type engine is no impediment to great level design!

7) Beyond 'proof of concept' - which is an admirable thing to do, and what has been done is incredibly impressive - is there really a point to making a Wolf3D-clone for the Amiga 500, when Atari ST already has an actual Wolf3D running on a relatively stock machine (correct me, if I am wrong), Wolf3D and Doom can both be played on pretty much any relatively modern device so easily, Alien Breed 3D exists (and probably can't be topped in gameplay, in my opinion), and so many good games, 3D or otherwise, are instantly playable in the modern times..?

Firstly it's not a Wolf3D clone.

Secondly what might have done on an Atari ST is irrelevant to those of us who (sensibly) don't own one.

Thirdly there are hundreds of A500s out there laying idle because there are no new and exciting games for it - which is a shame.

Fourthly many of us get a kick out of 'proving' that our ancient machines can still be enjoyable to use despite their perceived failings. Once you get into the game the platform doesn't matter, but there's something about the Amiga's simplicity and quiet reliability that makes it more appealing than a modern PC.

I mean, if the real reason is that 'Amiga 500 doesn't yet have this type of game', maybe it can work.

In the old days I would have said "no way", but KK/Altair has proved it is possible - a fast 3D FPS for the A500 that makes full use of its capabilities and looks and plays good too! We need to support his efforts to realize this goal and once again show that the Amiga can do the impossible...

[malko]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

[...] I also think it's a valid point to raise concerns about Doom in 1993 having 256 colors, floor and ceiling textures, heights and complex maps, when it comes to enjoying a game that comes so much later and doesn't reach even near Doom's level of visuals - which were impressive in 1993, but wouldn't be today. [...]

In my opinion Doom was and is still overrated (boring to play alone and only becomes fun in netplay).

Also, the cursor is not well positioned. What is important is not the 'year' but the 'material' which allow the realization. In this case an A500 and thus Dread IS impressive in 2021.

Furthermore, KK always stated that it is a "-like/clone". This suffix is enough already to point out that it is not a 1:1 copy of the original.

In an amazing and beautiful way so far, the team behind Dread has proven that a "-like/clone" is possible on an A500 .
This is what should better hit your eyes next time you look at it .

[d4rk3lf]

God bless my mid mouse click for fast scrolling the page.

[trixster]

You make some interesting points, nishicorn, and I’m not going to try and shoot you down, but I do think you’re overlooking the quite important point that everything that is being achieved with this demo/game is on a stock A500. The complexity of doom/ab3d is miles beyond the capabilities of a stock A500, and yet KK/Altair and associates have managed to create something really quite close. The coding and optimisation to do this is what is impressing everyone.

[roondar]

This was a very long post, I've picked a few points I wanted to respond to and left the rest - others have done a point-by-point reaction already

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

4) & 7) & This kind of effort is commendable and impressive, but I have to be philosophical sometimes and wonder about the point.

(etc... you bring this same point up many times in various different forms)

Others pointed this out already, but by this logic any Amiga development done today is pretty much pointless to begin with. A game doesn't have to be a new concept or idea to still have value.

P.S. For an ENGLISH Amiga Board, people sure can't write english. "to big", "sneak peak", "I didn't felt". Come on, english is an easy language by comparison to many other languages.

The correct spelling is English, not english.

constructive criticism can be very beneficial.

I agree. At the same time, I don't think your post is all that constructive. Most of what you raise is not all that relevant (your personal opinion about how pointless this game is does not make for constructive criticism, IMHO).

Other points you raise are factually wrong: the game will have multiple heights - the developer has pointed out this is a key feature he's going to implement many times now. He also has been very clear from the start that this will end up being somewhere between Wolfenstein 3D and Doom and not be an exact match to Doom in features.

It's appalling how people treated that one individual that dared raise any 'opposite viewpoints' or alternate way of seeing things. They may not have worded things in the most sophisticated way, but they didn't use cursewords and I don't think they were overly crude or insulting. If it is 'waste of time' from their viewpoint, what's so insulting about saying it? It might not be waste of time from someone else's viewpoint.

Calling someone's hard work a waste of time is definitely insulting, yes. It serves no purpose other than to antagonise and adds nothing to the discussion.

It's also disturbing that no one actually tried to have a conversation and actually talk about the -points- they raised

The developer has been extremely clear about these topics from the very start, so there was no reason to have a conversation about it.

[modrobert]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

It looks impressive - I didn't really think this would be feasible with Amiga 500.

However, there are a few things I'd like to point out, and hopefully people won't chew me up like they did anyone who dared raise any kind of criticism in this thread (is this a discussion board or a fanboy echo chamber where you are only allowed to praise and worship?)..

+1 for the negativity.

I think you have some valid points about "echo chamber" and daring to go against it, a side effect of being part of a community perhaps, not sure.

Regardless if Doom or not, in my experience so far not even the Wolfenstein 3D ports performs this well on an A1200, even with a 030 it's still slower than Dread on A500.

The excitement for me is about setting the hardware bar low at A500, and watch the Dread Team figure out clever ways to max the performance both technically and artistically.

[rothers]

Looking at how the engine performs, it probably could run the cut down console doom1 opening level now we've seen stairs will happen.

The console ports have much simplified levels with the general gist of the level there but with any taxing architecture/textures removed.

I mean it's what we've always wanted to see.

I do like that Dredd is going to be its own game though. Maybe have the doom level as a hidden secret.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

Amiga 500-version of a Wolfenstein 3D-clone is going to have to make so many compromises, that even with good fps and good-looking visuals and good gameplay, you have to wonder if it'd be a more interesting experience to just play Doom or AB3D instead.

Several of those 'necessary compromises' have been smashed already, and I expect to see more. If you look at the development of the game you can see improvements have been made by making use of Amiga features that weren't available on the PC.

I've played AB3D and was unimpressed, and Doom is old hat. I'm sure Dread will be a more interesting experience for me.

P.S. For an ENGLISH Amiga Board, people sure can't write english. "to big", "sneak peak", "I didn't felt". Come on, english is an easy language by comparison to many other languages.

It's "too big", "sneak peek" and "I didn't feel".

'English' should be capitalized.

But I'm not a grammar Nazi so I won't fault you for it - the rules of English are hard enough for even 'English' speakers to remember all of them. I have to look up stuff all the time to check whether I remember it right or the rules have changed since I learnt them 50 years ago. To make matters worse my spell(!) checker wants me to write in American English.

Furthermore, there'd never be any meaningful discussion, if everyone always had to be "positive" about everything. All sides of a story should be heard and pondered, and discussed.

Also, there's such a thing as butt-kissing and false positivity..

It's appalling how people treated that one individual that dared raise any 'opposite viewpoints' or alternate way of seeing things.

Not sure what you are referring to, but IMO there is still far too much negativity in the Amiga scene. One might have thought that we would be over it by now, but no. Whatever anyone is doing someone will came along to tell them how they are wasting their time playing with an Amiga when a modern PC is so much better (in every way that matters)

It's true that this game has no ceiling or floor textures, and it seems it doesn't have stairs or heights, which disqualifies it as a 'Doom-clone'. Yet no one said anything about this particular point.

Yes, we know it isn't a Doom clone, nor does it pretend to be. But even if it did, so what? Can we not be allowed to pretend a little?

So a player, whose eye has been spoiled by all kinds of modern wonders even since 1993, might feel a bit 'uneasy' playing this, even though the technical feat is obviously amazing and super impressive.

Raising this kind of point or concerns isn't insulting, it's a valid thought and concern that might manifest in actual reality for many players.

If that is the case that's their problem - I just enjoy what I have and don't feel the need to compare it to 'modern wonders'.

But hey, that's the Amiga way! Must keep stoking the feelings of inadequacy for fear of being seen as a fanboy who has lost their 'objectivity' (ie. that PCs are better in every way that matters).

I realize it's not something you want to hear when you have worked so hard to bring the impossible to the humble Amiga 500, but from a player's perspective, it is a valid point and concern.

Is it? I don't see how. 'Modern 3D games are so technologically advanced that we surely can't have fun playing an Amiga 3D game' is not a valid point in my book.

Even the fathers of Amiga wondered if they should have chosen chunky mode instead, as the planar system was very fast and perfect for fewer colors, 2D stuff and the Amiga 500 back in the day, but with added colors, 3D stuff, texture mapping etc. would make chunky an immensely preferred system.

This is completely irrelevant. Did the designers of the VGA card wonder if they should have added sprites and hardware scrolling? Perhaps, but it is what it is, and developers were happy enough just getting more colors. Planar graphics was the right choice for a time when memory was expensive and real-time 3D texture mapping wasn't a thing.

On the AGA side, C2P routines became really fast at some point, so even the Mac OS in a Mac-emulator could actually have faster screen update than Workbench in 256 colors. This is probably because planar 256 colors is just slower than chunky 256 colors in the same screenmode.

That doesn't make sense so I'm betting there is another reason, such as that Amiga OS uses the Blitter for everything which is slower than rendering to FastRAM with a fast CPU (but compromises multitasking - which the Mac didn't have). But you probably don't remember how slow ISA bus PCs were in SuperVGA. Of course in the faster 16 color mode VGA did use bitplanes, but we must not mention that.

So this commenter talking about chunky and planar is another valid point that no one ever rebutted, they just tell everyone to 'ignore them' - but this is like George Lucas only hiring Yes-men to work for him, and look at the result.

But it's not a valid point. The Amiga doesn't have chunky mode, so there's no point discussing it. It would like you were trying to tune your car engine for best performance and I came along and said you were wasting time because modern electric cars are so much more efficient and don't need to be tuned because they only have one moving part and the timing is done electronically. That wouldn't be 'valid commentary', it would be being a dick.

But when he made the episodes I-III, he didn't have to struggle. No one pointed any 'negative' points to him, no one dared criticize at all (they'd probably have been fired), and no one pointed out the madness to him, so he was able to completely and utterly ruin his own work.

The first Star Wars movie was enough - he should have stopped there. But when you have a good 'formula', people always want more - more special effects, more characters, more action etc., thinking these are the things that make a good movie. But they aren't. What makes a movie good is the story and the acting - just like what makes a computer game good is the level design and gameplay, not how many colors and objects you can get onto the screen at super-high frame rates.

I've played Spectrum games with only 1 bitplane that are more interesting than the average 'modern' 3D game. I've even played games with block character graphics and simplistic gameplay that had more staying power than an overly-sophisticated modern game. One of my favorite games is Windows Solitaire, which I can play for hours in 16 colors on any PC or emulated on the Amiga (wish there was an accurate native Amiga version!). It wouldn't get any better if it was converted to virtual reality 3D - in fact it would be worse.

This is what happens when you only have Yes-men around you and no criticism. So please take this post as a friendly, good-will, respectful criticism that simply raises some thoughts, points, viewpoints and valid concerns. Don't be a bunch of Lucases.

Your main points appear to be that Dread is a Wolf3D clone and therefore not worth doing, and it targets the A500 which isn't a worthy platform, that 3D isn't worth doing on the Amiga anyhow because it doesn't have a chunky mode, and that this project will fizzle out before completion because the developers will get bored with it (which totally wouldn't happen if the Amiga had a chunky mode, because then Dread could be the Doom clone people are claiming it is) - and anyone who disagrees is a 'yes-man' who is trying to shut down the conversation.

But this isn't being negative, oh no - it's valid criticism!

[turrican3]

amazing job, finally the impossible is becoming possible !
Do we have an idea of the size of the game ???

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by turrican3

Do we have an idea of the size of the game ???

You mean how many floppies?
That's good question.
I think KK mentioned something about it, but I am not sure exactly what... try to search it in this thread.

Btw, from my knowledge KK never had a plan to make a complete game, but a demo and engine... but now, with very talented Tsak and Pixek Shade, I hope that will change, and we will get full game at some point.
But I'd personally love to have demo and creation tools ASAP, so I can try and play with level creation myself.

Again about the size of the game:
I think realistic expectation would be...
Let's say:
Game will have 4 worlds (4 different palettes, per world) , and 4 worlds will have 4 levels - 16 levels in total.
Does 1 floppy per world sounds too much?
4 floppies in total?

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

It looks impressive - I didn't really think this would be feasible with Amiga 500.

However, [snip]

Well no negative beside you killed retrocomputing homebrew in a single answer as pointless, so what are you doing here?

[utri007]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Well no negative beside you killed retrocomputing homebrew in a single answer as pointless, so what are you doing here?

He just used 2041 word to say "don't do it", "if you try, you woun't finnish it", "it is bad", "I'm very intelligen" and "all the critics to me, are because of fan boys".

Boring.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Dare I say it, there are no A500 3D games that were any good - until now!

Errr... I have to react here and highly disagree (although, I agree to all your other points).
There's a plenty of nice 3D games for A500.
First of all - Frontier - a masterpiece of the game... then there is a bunch of others, and all of them are great games:
- Elite
- Wing Commander
- FA18/Interceptor
- Legends of Valor
- Birds of Pray
- Gunship 2000
- No Second Prize (the engine on that one is still beyond amazing)
- Zeewolf 1 and 2
- Ambermoon
- Vroom
- Behind the iron gates

...etc... etc..