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Old 30 October 2020, 22:24   #61
Thomas Richter
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Harald ("Rotzlöffel") here tested on the CVision.
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Old 31 October 2020, 06:13   #62
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@ Thomas,

It's sweet to have CVisionPPC functioning under OS 3.1.4.1. It didn't work right out of the box, I had to copy the rest of the of package cards to the installed. I'll check into that later. I'm very glad to see Wipeout 2097, Payback WOS, and some others are functioning as they should. FakeModes is giving a problem though.

PAL monitor may be removed or still in Monitors..but it doesn't make any difference. At least for my complicated 3.5 and updated 3.5 to 3.1.4.1 install. FakeModes are still causing problems between my Picasso 4 and CVisionPPC.

I don't have FakeNativeModes active in either Monitor (CVPPC/PicassoIV)..so they shouldn't be shown in ScreenMode list but they are. If I set my A4000 in Native screen mode...then booting my Picasso 4's screen looks wonky (when Screenmode.prefs is deleted)..with a Line about 25% from the bottom. If I remove CVisionPPC from Devs:Monitors to Devs: and reboot..then PAL or NTSC displays fine. Also, when WHDLoad or any other game that relies on PAL or NTSC is passed through from my Picasso 4 I hear sound, that isn't correct. The press the Exit key, whatever is assigned that that WHDLoad game, it will exit..and I have mouse access again.

With CGFX 4+Last Update this isn't a problem with Picasso 4 + CVisionPPC. Just change PASSTHROUGH settings. Is it possible to add some kind of Passthrough to P96? I read the FAQ...but it's only focused on what IS..not the possible future.

Meanwhile, I'll just activate CVisionPPC from just outside of Devs: drawer I have Leftout on my Workbench? By the way, HUGE Appreciation for getting to all at least functional. What a great start!

Workbench Screen Dragging with PIV..requires a moment before dragging but does do it. I noticed that after a few first attempts.
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Old 31 October 2020, 09:52   #63
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Originally Posted by nogginthenog View Post
Thanks Thomas, I read the FAQ. OS 3.14

Anyone here with a Cybervision/3D with working dragging?
Yes this works! The screens you want to Drag Must be of Same size and depth!
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Old 31 October 2020, 10:45   #64
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I don't have FakeNativeModes active in either Monitor (CVPPC/PicassoIV)..so they shouldn't be shown in ScreenMode list but they are.
They have to be active, and are always active regardless of the tool types. Thank Phase5 for that (Once again that company...). The problem is that the boot ROM of the CyberVisionPPC installs its own patches into the display info database, and there replaces relevant information for all native modes that are required to build them to be able to promote the boot menu. If the CVisionPPC driver would *not* replace them, attempting to open a screen in the native modes would just crash the system (or do some other harm) as they now conflict with the P96 functions and its setting of the Permedia chip - but you wouldn't get a native mode either.


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Workbench Screen Dragging with PIV..requires a moment before dragging but does do it. I noticed that after a few first attempts.


Yes, and the answer for that is - "drummroll!" - in the FAQ. Due to the way how the VGA chips work, the start address of the frontmost screen (the one you are dragging) has to be at offset 0 of the graphics card. If you start pulling, P96 has to re-arrange memory to meet this requirement. However, this only happens once for each screen pair, i.e. once the memory is aligned properly, the next drag operation of the same screen pair will start immediately.
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Old 31 October 2020, 16:00   #65
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Originally Posted by Rotzloeffel View Post
Yes this works! The screens you want to Drag Must be of Same size and depth!
I got dragging partly working.
Made a fresh WB 3.1.4 install with just 060 libs and Pic96. Screen dragging works but only if I select a 32bit screen mode!

640x480 8bit PC: Not working, but the screens flip as I drag.
640x480 16bit PC: Same
640x480 24bit BGR: Same
640x480 32bit BGRA: Dragging works correctly.

I tend to use a 16bit mode as it's faster

On my main partition dragging still does not work, even 32bit modes. I suspect there is a setting somewhere.
To be honest, I'm not really too bothered. Switched to Pic96 over a year ago.
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Old 31 October 2020, 16:18   #66
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Originally Posted by Rotzloeffel View Post
Yes this works! The screens you want to Drag Must be of Same size and depth!

The size does not matter. Mode coercion works, you can drag a 800x600 screen over a 1024x768 screen. However, the RGB mode matters. You cannot drag a 24 bit screen over a 16 bit screen.
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Old 31 October 2020, 19:30   #67
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They have to be active, and are always active regardless of the tool types. Thank Phase5 for that (Once again that company...). The problem is that the boot ROM of the CyberVisionPPC installs its own patches into the display info database, and then replaces relevant information for all native modes that are required to build them to be able to promote the boot menu. If the CVisionPPC driver would *not* replace them, attempting to open a screen in the native modes would just crash the system (or do some other harm) as they now conflict with the P96 functions and its setting of the Permedia chip - but you wouldn't get a native mode either.

CyberGraphX V4 has a passthrough so you could choose which board to pass through to. Which is why I wondered. Workaround, shift the Workbench screen to CVisionPPC and then Picasso 4 will be used for WHDLoad...without needing to reset. I appreciate the info, as usual.

Quote:
Yes, and the answer for that is - "drummroll!" - in the FAQ. Due to the way how the VGA chips work, the start address of the frontmost screen (the one you are dragging) has to be at offset 0 of the graphics card. If you start pulling, P96 has to re-arrange memory to meet this requirement. However, this only happens once for each screen pair, i.e. once the memory is aligned properly, the next drag operation of the same screen pair will start immediately.

I read the FAQ, funny man .. I understand how Memory is being used just didn't expect the delay. Not a problem.
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Old 01 November 2020, 06:09   #68
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Ooops..Shifting Workbench to CVisionPPC does NOT function well for all WHDLoad games. Still, best option is to drag it outside Monitors then reset.
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Old 01 November 2020, 09:34   #69
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Originally Posted by nogginthenog View Post
I got dragging partly working.
Made a fresh WB 3.1.4 install with just 060 libs and Pic96. Screen dragging works but only if I select a 32bit screen mode!

640x480 8bit PC: Not working, but the screens flip as I drag.
640x480 16bit PC: Same
640x480 24bit BGR: Same
640x480 32bit BGRA: Dragging works correctly.

I tend to use a 16bit mode as it's faster

On my main partition dragging still does not work, even 32bit modes. I suspect there is a setting somewhere.
To be honest, I'm not really too bothered. Switched to Pic96 over a year ago.

Checked it this morning as Thomas asked for! I can confirm this issue! Thomas will surely solf this problem and I will test it! We keep you up to date. Work never ends Thanks for reporting this!
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Old 03 November 2020, 07:34   #70
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@ Thomas & other developers,

Are you willing to make a passthrough that recognizes or is for Scandoubler boards like PicassoIV? Or have I misunderstood the FAQ? Which I've read a few times. Seems Picasso4 monitor is skipping or missing the Scandoubler hardware when CVisionPPC is active. This isn't the case with CGX 4 plus last update. I still very much prefer P96.
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Old 03 November 2020, 11:06   #71
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Hi, I have an admittedly stupid question. And I am fearful people will assume I’m trying to throw shade here, which is not at all my intent. But I’m genuinely curious: what is the functional outcome of screen dragging? In other words, what’s the point? Does it do something useful or is it just a neat visual feature?
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Old 03 November 2020, 13:23   #72
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@ Thomas & other developers,
Are you willing to make a passthrough that recognizes or is for Scandoubler boards like PicassoIV?
Sorry, I do not understand. I am not manifacturing hardware, Jens does. The P-IV does not have a pass-through in the literal sense, but yes, it can show the Amiga RGB output, and this works, we got it tested, so I am not quite sure what you are asking for.


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Seems Picasso4 monitor is skipping or missing the Scandoubler hardware when CVisionPPC is active. This isn't the case with CGX 4 plus last update. I still very much prefer P96.

The way how the P-IV works is that it has a video grabber input that takes the Amiga RGB output, digitizes it and plays it on an overlay with the frequency of the graphics card. This is pretty much like an "pass through plus flicker fixer", except that it works entirely different. The CVision output signal has a different frequency, so I am not even clear whether the PIV frame grabber chip can digitize this signal.


Whatever it is, I don't have a P-IV, so I can certainly not develop something in this direction.
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Old 03 November 2020, 13:28   #73
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Originally Posted by cloverskull View Post
What is the functional outcome of screen dragging?
Frankly... Getting users on board of P96...


But seriously: I personally do not know, I am not really in the need of the feature. It is kind of neat, as it was a "promotion argument" for the Amiga, and some users seem eager to have it, so you got it.



One application I do remember from the past was GFA basic, which should the "direct input command prompt" in a separate screen just under the workbench, so you could type a command, and the output would appear on the workbench, even though the command was in the GFA basic editor.



Now, GFA is long since obsolete, and it was a fragile and bug-ridden product, but that was the last time screen dragging did something useful for me. Nowadays... well, I don't know, but apparently, some people want to have it and used its absence as argument against P96. There you go, P96 can do it.
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Old 03 November 2020, 18:44   #74
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Gotcha. Hey, I definitely think it’s a neat thing to see, so not complaining Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 03 November 2020, 21:33   #75
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CyberGraphics was pretty similar to native modes. I moved to P96 a year ago due to the updated Intuition/Layers stuff in 3.1.4. To be honest I'm not really missing it.
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Old 04 November 2020, 00:03   #76
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Sorry, I do not understand. I am not manifacturing hardware, Jens does. The P-IV does not have a pass-through in the literal sense, but yes, it can show the Amiga RGB output, and this works, we got it tested, so I am not quite sure what you are asking for.

The way how the P-IV works is that it has a video grabber input that takes the Amiga RGB output, digitizes it and plays it on an overlay with the frequency of the graphics card. This is pretty much like an "pass through plus flicker fixer", except that it works entirely different. The CVision output signal has a different frequency, so I am not even clear whether the PIV frame grabber chip can digitize this signal.

I wasn't asking you or anyone else to make (new) hardware or asking about the hardware. I'll rephrase.. Is some kind of software switch (pass through) going to be added to P96 so that native Amiga modes are passed to a board such as Picasso 4 or whatever board that has a scandoubler?


CyberGraphX V3 to V4 has a software Pass Through in ENV: and ToolTypes to indicate to switch to a board that can display that. It's the only reason I use CGX4...if I wanted to access 3D capabilities of my CVisionPPC while being able to switched to a WHDLoad game for a little bit..which would be displayed through Picasso 4 without matter of which board the Workbench is displayed.



I adore the new Intuition of of P96 so I'm hopefully it'll become a it more "complete" package that way.


Quote:
Whatever it is, I don't have a P-IV, so I can certainly not develop something in this direction.

So....might be without a pass through. Which means drag CVisionPPC out of Devs:Monitors to Devs: then reset or Drag into Devs:Monitors then reset to use 3D depending on using native modes for games...such as WHDLoad installed. I tried to ModePro (Modes Promotion) but that didn't help.


Again, if PicassoIV monitor is in Monitors and CVisionPPC is not in Monitors, then WHDLoad and other games and programs seem to be doing very well and PicassoIV digitizes as it should. Maybe I'm the only user noticing this??


I do appreciate the reply.
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Old 04 November 2020, 08:43   #77
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Is some kind of software switch (pass through) going to be added to P96 so that native Amiga modes are passed to a board such as Picasso 4 or whatever board that has a scandoubler?
Sorry, I may be stupid, but I do not understand. P-IV does have a scandoubler, and it is active whenever a native mode is shown. It takes its input, coming from the native Amiga output, and provides a (rescaned, digitized) version of it at the output of the P-IV. This is the pass-through.


You can select via a tool type of the monitor driver whether a particular board has a monitor switch and is in the display chain. I forgot the name of the tool type, but it is in the guide/manual.


If you want a mode-promotion utility to render native screens instead on the P-IV without the "scan doubler" (as said, this is not really a scan doubler, but it serves its purpose), there are plenty on Aminet.


Quote:
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So....might be without a pass through. Which means drag CVisionPPC out of Devs:Monitors to Devs: then reset or Drag into Devs:Monitors then reset to use 3D depending on using native modes for games...such as WHDLoad installed. I tried to ModePro (Modes Promotion) but that didn't help.
P-IV does not have a "pass-through" in the classical sense (i.e. it does not have a switch that would simply bypass the signal from the VGA-in to the VGA-out), it has a frame grabber and digitizer sitting at the input. I'm not sure whether that answers the question. Whether WHDLoad uses that correctly I doubt. There is no direct interface for that. To activate the "bypass", you simply need to open a native screen via the operating system.




Quote:
Originally Posted by AC/DC HACKER! View Post
Again, if PicassoIV monitor is in Monitors and CVisionPPC is not in Monitors, then WHDLoad and other games and programs seem to be doing very well and PicassoIV digitizes as it should. Maybe I'm the only user noticing this??
I'm not clear what you are observing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the P-IV screen grabber only takes 15Khz input as it needs to know the frequency of the incoming signal. It is probably not able to digitize any 31kHz mode, but I may be wrong. The simplest solution would be to have the P-IV input directly connected to the native chipset output, and route the output of the P-IV.



The CVisionPPC does not have a monitor pass-through at all. You need an external switch for it. There is a tool type to enable one, but I do not know the brand and where you could get it. If you need a CVIsionPPC and a P-IV in the same system at once, the only option is to have two monitors. Note, however, that such a setup would *not* be able to show native screens. The CVisionPPC driver *has* to promote all native modes to the CVisionPPC, unfortunately. This is simply because the firmware of the card already installs patches into the operating system, and the original entry points into the ROM required to create a native chipset screen are already lost at the time P96 jumps in.



Tecnically, this is not a patch of a library entry point, but it is the "VecTable" in the display info data base for all native screen modes that are patched over by the CVisionPPC. Unfortunately, P96 cannot know where these entries should go into the ROM, the ROM vectors for them are not available anywhere, and thus, any attempt to create a native display on the CVisionPPC will fail. P5 called that a "software scandoubler", but it is actually a ROM-based mode promotion.
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Old 04 November 2020, 09:18   #78
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Hi, I have an admittedly stupid question. And I am fearful people will assume I’m trying to throw shade here, which is not at all my intent. But I’m genuinely curious: what is the functional outcome of screen dragging? In other words, what’s the point? Does it do something useful or is it just a neat visual feature?
When you have limited resolution it is quite useful. I often drag screens down on my A1200 so I can see one screen while working on another. Compared to using multiple windows it is faster and cleaner, and since the A1200 is connected to a TV through composite A/V I can't just increase the resolution to get more desktop space (and frankly I don't want to. Old eyes prefer a bigger bolder image!).

On my Vampired A600 I run 1024 x 768 (highest resolution my TV can do in HDMI with 1:1 pixel mapping) so I probably have enough desktop space. However I still run some apps in separate screens because that's what I am used to, and not being able to drag them down like on the A1200 is annoying. So it's one of those features that you probably wouldn't miss if you never had it.

Many PC users today use multiple monitors for a similar purpose, but this requires a fancy graphic card etc. The Amiga's method is much more efficient, which was essential for a low cost machine in the 80's. PC users of the day weren't generally multitasking so they had no use for multiple screens with their own resolutions etc. Now it's different, but the PC world went for higher resolution instead to solve the problem. That is why for all their power, modern PC graphics chips can't do what the Amiga could since 1985!
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Old 04 November 2020, 10:45   #79
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You can select via a tool type of the monitor driver whether a particular board has a monitor switch and is in the display chain. I forgot the name of the tool type, but it is in the guide/manual.
So is this the DISPLAYCHAIN=Yes tooltype?

And this must be yes in the monitor icon of the board that has the native mode pass through hardware and no in the icons of the boards that do not have the pass through?

Here's one thing I haven't fully understood from the documentation, are the monitor icon tooltypes always local to the board, or is it a mixture of local and global settings?

Last edited by Jope; 04 November 2020 at 10:57.
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Old 04 November 2020, 12:02   #80
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So is this the DISPLAYCHAIN=Yes tooltype?
Yes. Except that the argument should be "No" for those boards that are not in the display chain. It is "yes" by default.



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And this must be yes in the monitor icon of the board that has the native mode pass through hardware and no in the icons of the boards that do not have the pass through?
Err... it must go to the monitor type of the board that is not in the display chain. The display chain is the chain of switches and graphics cards that route the video signal from the amiga RGB output, over one or multiple graphics cards, to the monitor input.


If a board is not in the display chain, then P96 does not attempt to switch its VGA switch *off* if the currently active screen(s) are on another board. Note that this is only a control of the VGA switch (if the board has one). If the board has no VGA switch, well, then there is nothing to be switched, and the output of the board is always active. That is what happens for the CVisionPPC.
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