Next game to port?

[vulture]

Personally, I see no reason for games with good conversions on the 16-bit consoles of the era to target anything else than a base A500(1mb)/A1200.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Having a massively expanded A500 was not an option for a great many people. There's a good reason that the vast majority of OCS games were for 512Kb Amigas - the majority of A500 owners didn't have an enormous 1MB upgrade.

I can't remember seeing an A500 back in the day that *didn't* have 1MB of RAM. Many games needed it, and lots of kids got it with their machines as part of a bundle.

Originally Posted by roondar

This is somewhat debatable, the vast majority of Amiga's sold (i.e. the 70 odd percent of total Amiga sales which were A500's) were not all that expandable. Sure, you could expand an A500, but doing so was usually quite expensive. So yes, the Amiga did offer expandability, but most people only bought systems that didn't really suit it.

Being expensive to expand is besides my point. It was designed to be expanded with the option of wholesale replacing the CPU without even opening the case. The A1000 had a sidecar expansion port, and so did the A500. That such expansions ultimately weren't bought by the majority of users because all they wanted was to be able to run cracked games from floppy is a different matter - the machine wasn't intended to be stuck as a single configuration in the way a console was (and still is).

[manossg]

How many people today own vanilla A500/A1200?

[vulture]

Most. For example, I have 3 unexpanded A1200s and just one 030

[modrobert]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Indeed, though that's where things start to get murky. Some Amiga keyboards (e.g. the A1200) don't support multiple keypresses on most keys, so WASD controls don't work. It's part of the reason Amiga games still used arrow keys and qualifiers when WASD became popular, because those keys can be read when pressed together.

Interesting, didn't know that, explains a lot. Are there any keys on the left side of the keyboard not limited regarding simultaneous key presses (or at least where diagonal direction presses work)?

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Being expensive to expand is besides my point. It was designed to be expanded with the option of wholesale replacing the CPU without even opening the case. The A1000 had a sidecar expansion port, and so did the A500. That such expansions ultimately weren't bought by the majority of users because all they wanted was to be able to run cracked games from floppy is a different matter - the machine wasn't intended to be stuck as a single configuration in the way a console was (and still is).

I don't really agree with that. The earlier Amiga's and OS versions were not really all that well suited for processor/hdd upgrades (despite it 'kind of'/mostly working). It's an interesting topic with far more details than I think fit this thread*, but suffice to say that even the 68020 wasn't properly supported until OS 2.0 released in 1990 and that HDD support was iffy at best prior to 1.3 becoming commonplace (around 1989, of four years after the release of the Amiga).

*) I had typed a great deal more here with the details of what I mean, but I do think we're going off topic here. More than willing to discuss it elsewhere though, if you want to

[d4rk3lf]

Although it's a very nice debate, I think it's a little bit pointless, because both sides have valid points.
Amiga deserves to have both Final Fight ports (one aiming A500 1MB, and doing necessary compromises, and one aiming A1200 with 4 or 8MB, that would be almost arcade perfect port)... same for Street Fighter 2, and some other games.

It's enormous amount of job though, so we can only dream to have something like that, even in far future, but in ideal world, we would enjoy both versions.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by modrobert

Interesting, didn't know that, explains a lot. Are there any keys on the left side of the keyboard not limited regarding simultaneous key presses (or at least where diagonal direction presses work)?

Not really, at least none that are close enough together to be convenient. The qualifiers (Control, Shift, Left Alt and Left Amiga) all work independently, but aren't exactly ideal. Using an external keyboard solves the problem, but that's a little extreme really

Originally Posted by roondar

I don't really agree with that. The earlier Amiga's and OS versions were not really all that well suited for processor/hdd upgrades (despite it 'kind of'/mostly working). It's an interesting topic with far more details than I think fit this thread*, but suffice to say that even the 68020 wasn't properly supported until OS 2.0 released in 1990 and that HDD support was iffy at best prior to 1.3 becoming commonplace (around 1989, of four years after the release of the Amiga).

Yeah, I'm well aware of the intricacies and limitations, but again that's besides the point because it remains that the architecture was designed for such possibilities, even if it took the OS a few years to catch up.

[roondar]

Please understand that I'm definitely not trying to say that no ports to expanded A1200's should be made. I'm just trying to say that I'm personally only really interested in ports to base model 'keyboard' Amiga's (A1000/unexpanded A2000/CD32 too of course, and the A500 with 1MB, which was so common it kind of became a base model).

As I said earlier, I respect peoples opinions may differ

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Yeah, I'm well aware of the intricacies and limitations, but again that's besides the point because it remains that the architecture was designed for such possibilities, even if it took the OS a few years to catch up.

IMHO the OS is part of the architecture - more so on the Amiga as it's quite literally part of the hardware for most machines. Also, I only pointed to some SW limitations here, but there's plenty to say about hardware limitations as well. But anyway, I think it's best we agree to disagree or move this to another thread

[Lord Aga]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Well what kind of positive answer could I expect on that from someone with your nick? :P

Don't get me wrong. I love the A500, and I think it's cool as hell. It has some perfect ports, like Pang. I wouldn't ask for anything more with Pang.
But let's not massacre a wonderful game just so we can say "yeah we have a port". Actually, we already have an abomination like that.

Basic A500 is way out of its league when it comes to Final Fight. And maybe it was wrong to even mention colours. It's more about the complexity of the game. I don't know how many people here have played the arcade version of Final Fight extensively, and came to know the game in-depth. If you tried to recreate it faithfully on the A500 you would hit the RAM wall and then the CPU wall, way before the colour wall. You could make a game that resembles Final Fight, but has a greatly simplified gameplay. This is the official port we have now. It resembles Final Fight, but when you start playing it you see that it is some unrelated beat-em-up, with Final Fight skin.

People who have never played the arcade version, or have played it a couple of times, might think that it is an OK game. But Final Fight it ain't.

My point is, yes, let's do good A500 ports where it's possible. Let's not massacre games where it isn't possible.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Lord Aga

If you tried to recreate it faithfully on the A500 you would hit the RAM wall and then the CPU wall, way before the colour wall. You could make a game that resembles Final Fight, but has a greatly simplified gameplay.

Mislim da... gresis, ovaj gresis silno sinko.
(citat: petao Sofronije).

translation:

I respectfully disagree.
Imagine you create only a stick figures for the characters (both players and enemy), no BG, and I think that A500 version could be arcade perfect (in gameplay terms)... then you just see how much memory is left for the rest of the stuff (graphics.. music).
Of course, it's much easier said then done.

And yeah, I've played a lot of Arcade version (mostly through Mame), and nearly got to the end of the game with one credit.

[khph_re]

Originally Posted by Lord Aga

Basic A500 is way out of its league when it comes to Final Fight. And maybe it was wrong to even mention colours. It's more about the complexity of the game. I don't know how many people here have played the arcade version of Final Fight extensively, and came to know the game in-depth. If you tried to recreate it faithfully on the A500 you would hit the RAM wall and then the CPU wall, way before the colour wall. You could make a game that resembles Final Fight, but has a greatly simplified gameplay. This is the official port we have now. It resembles Final Fight, but when you start playing it you see that it is some unrelated beat-em-up, with Final Fight skin.


My point is, yes, let's do good A500 ports where it's possible. Let's not massacre games where it isn't possible.

Can see what your saying, but I think that metro siege shows that an A500 conversion could be done to a decent standard.

Obviously the 060 AGA and A500 1meg get all the love, it would be nice if the base 1200 or A1200+fast got some love too.

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

I'm not.

For me the Amiga is about a stock A500/A600 and A1200/CD32.

There does not seem to be a well defined hardware standard at a reasonable price that warrants creating games for expanded Amigas.

I'd rather consider a little bit of fastmem as target machine, since Amiga isn't pure console, but computer.I feel that Amiga,should had have some fast ram since begining.

[sandruzzo]

The beauty of Final Fight on Amiga is gameplay: a lot close to coin-op. But, Could it be better as gfx? Maybe. Maybe, with shorter bobs', maybe with shorter screen area. Maybe...

is it worth doing it another time?

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

The beauty of Final Fight on Amiga is gameplay: a lot close to coin-op. But, Could it be better as gfx?

Did I get you right, or you are saying that FF on Amiga is good in gameplay terms and close to arcade?
The gameplay is biggest issue in Amiga version (I could lilve with these graphics), and it's totally NOT Final Fight.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

[sandruzzo]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Did I get you right, or you are saying that FF on Amiga is good in gameplay terms and close to arcade?
The gameplay is biggest issue in Amiga version (I could lilve with these graphics), and it's totally NOT Final Fight.

Apologies if I misunderstood.

Besides some slow down, I liked it. You've got right. Maybe the real issue was to try to have the same big sprites on screen. I found Street Fight real shit about game play. It is a mess!

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by sandruzzo

Besides some slow down, I liked it. You've got right. Maybe the real issue was to try to have the same big sprites on screen

Waaay more issues then slowdowns.
I could EVEN live with huge slowdowns, if the gameplay was anywhere near the arcade. But it's not. Not even close.
Lack of grab and throw, is the first thing that bothers me. Lack of combos is second. Then, the enemy crazy behavior when they get you in a corner, where you can't do anything then die, ruins the experience completely.
The way that game starts, and you just get hit without time to react.

Richard Aplin did an amazing job, considering it's working on unexpanded A500 (only 500kb), and he said that he even left space for music (but nobody provided).
And he admit that he never liked the game, and it was boring to him.

That makes me think, that with his engine, it was totally possible that we get much closer FF in gameplay as arcade, and if the emgine could use full 1MB, all extra missing moves could be added.
I would be perfectly happy with version like that (even with slowdowns, or choppy scrolling).

[sandruzzo]

Considering how few time He had to do that game, that after all, I'm still thinking that after all, game play is good.

[sandruzzo]

Since FF is there, why don't dare to port FF2?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Waaay more issues then slowdowns.
I could EVEN live with huge slowdowns, if the gameplay was anywhere near the arcade. But it's not. Not even close.
Lack of grab and throw, is the first thing that bothers me. Lack of combos is second. Then, the enemy crazy behavior when they get you in a corner, where you can't do anything then die, ruins the experience completely.
The way that game starts, and you just get hit without time to react.

Richard Aplin did an amazing job, considering it's working on unexpanded A500 (only 500kb), and he said that he even left space for music (but nobody provided).
And he admit that he never liked the game, and it was boring to him.

That makes me think, that with his engine, it was totally possible that we get much closer FF in gameplay as arcade, and if the emgine could use full 1MB, all extra missing moves could be added.
I would be perfectly happy with version like that (even with slowdowns, or choppy scrolling).

RA's Final Fight version was the closest we could get to an A500. Richard had to cuts everywhere to make the game fit.

He even had to remove the elevator level. Final Fight Game logic is huge, and would be very complicated to port on A500, never mind the fact that the CPU would not cope (7mhz vs 10mhz). Note also that the Final Fight Arcade Code is very tight and clean already, so there's not really space for improvement.