Gods reverse engineering - Page 5

jotd · 30 December 2019, 13:56

it's a completely different game. But some EAB users used kroah editor to create 2 levels (level 1 & level 3). Not a complete level set, though. shame

Retro1234 · 30 December 2019, 15:59

TCD created some New Chaos Engine levels with Exl's editor

Exl did some Excellent!!! Editors.

JohnnyWalker · 30 December 2019, 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dastardly

The Chaos Engine never got a sequel either. Shame that.

Is that a dig at how awful the sequel was?

DamienD · 31 December 2019, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyWalker

Is that a dig at how awful the sequel was?

I would say; most definitely!!!

jotd · 31 December 2019, 09:49

I enjoyed playing the sequel one year ago. I even made it to the first boss. I must admit, at higher levels, I lost interest.

Shame as the graphics are awesome. But the "speedball II / fight the other when you don't know where he is on a split screen" wore me off after a while. The missions are multi-part, the computer knows what to do at once, but you don't and it takes several attempts to figure it out. Really too bad, as more CE levels could have been done with the same full AA graphics

JohnnyWalker · 31 December 2019, 14:34

I hated the graphics of Chaos Engine 2. I don't know what happened. They went from beautifully muted steampunk to cartoon psychedelic.

I LOVE Dan Malone's work, though. I think he's an absolute genius. I wonder if he was just instructed to add more colour because of the palette increase, or if he was rushed, or what. I know Gary Carr was responsible for some of the graphics. Maybe Malone didn't make the call at all.

jotd · 31 December 2019, 15:18

maybe the aztec level suffered from too much moisture & moss attack

But the overal AA processing was very good. If you remove all the greenness of the image, the other colors are good.
Of course 16-color Chaos Engine palette is astounding, but the 256 color rework didn't impress me.

I wish they had created a 32 or 256 color game from scratch besides CE2.

And yes, Dan Malone is a genius

Dastardly · 31 December 2019, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyWalker

Is that a dig at how awful the sequel was?

Partly. I don't like CE2. It feels like a poor PD game where some of the graphics were lifted from the original. I could be wrong on this, but I'd imagine the only reason Dan Malone is credited is because some of his work from the original was reused. All the newer stuff I've seen isn't in the same league.

jotd · 31 December 2019, 16:58

"PD game" seems unfair. There's a lot of AI, the graphics are much better than a lot of games, the music is an original RJ composition and is very good. Everything shines ... except gameplay which is very stressful and difficult to understand.

Dastardly · 31 December 2019, 17:46

Yeah, maybe comparing it to a PD game is too strong. It's just that when they set such high standards with their previous game, this one just looks even worse compared to it.

If it was called something else and made by a different team I probably wouldn't judge it so harshly.

JohnnyWalker · 31 December 2019, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dastardly

Partly. I don't like CE2. It feels like a poor PD game where some of the graphics were lifted from the original. I could be wrong on this, but I'd imagine the only reason Dan Malone is credited is because some of his work from the original was reused. All the newer stuff I've seen isn't in the same league.

That's an interesting point, and I'd be willing to believe it, but he put one of the hyper-saturated monstrosities on his old DeviantArt page. Really odd, but maybe they were just going for more colours. I don't know.

https://www.deviantart.com/danmalone...ngine-31328419

It's worth noting that the ECS version was just as garish, so it wasn't the additional AGA colour palette but a conscious change away from the Bitmap Bros aesthetic.

On his current portfolio he only uses the OCS/ECS artwork, so maybe he's come around, too.

The Bitmaps didn't do a single good thing in AGA if you ask me. I hated the additional colours on Speedball II, as well.

Dastardly · 01 January 2020, 15:31

Yeah, as I said, I could be wrong about Malone's involvement. It's just that some of the level graphics in CE2 don't seem anywhere near as well drawn to me. There are quite a few graphic artists listed in the credits so maybe their contributions are the difference I can see. It would be nice to see a break down of exactly who did what.

JohnnyWalker · 01 January 2020, 20:47

I'm currently reading "Universe" (the Bitmap Brothers biography) and I think I finally understand what went on. Dan Malone talks about CE2 briefly. He was quite involved, it seems, but the book also says that the Bitmaps were pushing toward the Sega Megadrive at that time as the Amiga was dying.

The thing about the Megadrive is that it apparently has a PALETTE of 512 colours. So Malone was forced to recolour a lot of things. If they were making CE2 with that in mind, he would have been forced to work with that very limited range of colours, and possibly with a different audience's considerations to think about.

That might explain the sudden garish shift. Or maybe Malone just felt like a change... shrug.

Also it's mentioned that, as expected, there was some internal friction between the AGA/CD32 versions. Eric Matthews didn't want them to port the games, he wanted to build something that was made specifically for new hardware. Unfortunately the Bitmaps didn't needed a quick injection from simple ports. A weird compromise was made where (seemingly almost arbitrary) quick changes were made to at least show they weren't straight ports. Hence the weird colouring on Speedball II and the annoying audio. The CD32 had Malone creating a whole new animated sequence (which I never liked myself), and the introduction of more colours -- because they could.

What amazing is that Malone seems just as enthused about these games as we are. At one point he talks about wanting to create 50 more players in the Speedball II world, just so people can see what else he had planned. I really wish he'd been involved in the godawful Speedball II remasters!

I wonder how much the rights to build a remaster are?

JohnnyWalker · 19 November 2020, 11:22

Kroah, not sure if you're still updating your superb reverse engineering tools, but I spotted a bug in your GODS one last night: If you try to look at the triggering events around Level 2's Guardian it will crash.

Amazingly fascinating stuff though. Thanks for making them!!!

For anyone who isn't aware there are now tools for: The Chaos Engine, Speedball II (at least to play), Magic Pockets, Cadaver and many more

http://bringerp.free.fr/RE/

Brilliant stuff

Kroah · 24 November 2020, 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyWalker

Kroah, not sure if you're still updating your superb reverse engineering tools, but I spotted a bug in your GODS one last night: If you try to look at the triggering events around Level 2's Guardian it will crash.

Amazingly fascinating stuff though. Thanks for making them!!!

Brilliant stuff

Thank you for your kind words.
Nothing would have been possible without the initial work of outstanding people from this era.

I'll have a look at the Gods Viewer, thank you for reporting the bug.

If you don't mind, i'll answer to your mail too:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyWalker

Would you ever consider finishing your Speedball 2 remake? It plays perfectly at the moment I guess it's literally only the interface that needs doing?

Yes, it's mainly the interface that is missing (the shop and the tournament).
But when i saw that many remakes were ongoing for several platforms to revive the game with official licences, I preferred to stop working on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyWalker

Also, it would be wonderful if you could view the graphics revealed by your tools at 2x or 3x so you can more clearly see what's going on.

I agree that with high resolution screens, that becomes mandatory...

I would have hoped that there was some sort of tool that could zoom in on a selected window (and not the entire screen).

Take care,
Kroah

JohnnyWalker · 16 January 2021, 22:02

Hi Kroah, I've just seen this reply now (I don't visit the boards very often). Thanks.

JohnnyWalker · 16 January 2021, 23:24

Also, for those who modern gamers who love GODS, I was chatting with the developer of GODS: REMASTERED and he shared with me a little secret that's not been revealed anywhere before, I don't think.

Quote:

There’s a little easter egg in the game I think noone has found yet... during startup while the logo sequence is running, press the following buttons one after another, for directions use the D-Pad: LEFT, RIGHT, UP, DOWN, X, DOWN, LEFT

It's a cool little fake cracktro thing.

I also asked why Eric Matthews, Richard Joseph and Steve Tall had had their names removed from the credits in the Remastered version. The answer quite surprised me: The new developer felt since he had rewritten all of their code, that they didn't deserve to be credited in Gods Remastered. So bizarre.

gimbal · 16 January 2021, 23:29

Technically it's not needed, but it is just so disrespectful to not do it.

jotd · 16 January 2021, 23:42

Not nice, specially because he had access to the original code and rewrote it in C/C++/whatever.

without the original code he'd been left with f*ck-all.

(maybe not for Richard Joseph wrote the amiga version of the music module and the sfx code, I suppose none of the music or code were left in the remastered version)

JohnnyWalker · 20 January 2021, 16:30

And even ignoring the code itself, what about the game design? Eric Matthews and Steve Tall did everything: All the levels, puzzles, mechanics, etc. Just because you rewrote the code doesn't mean the game design itself doesn't need to be credited!

As for Richard Joseph, what about the actual sound effects? Even if his SFX code/music module wasn't used, someone still designed the sound for the game.

I'm surprised Mike Montgomery (who IS credited as "owner" of The Bitmap Bros) didn't say anything.

The only Bitmap Bros properly credited by the developer was Mark Coleman, for his graphics. So weird

31 December 2019, 14:34	#86
JohnnyWalker aka ThunderPeel2001 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 303	I hated the graphics of Chaos Engine 2. I don't know what happened. They went from beautifully muted steampunk to cartoon psychedelic. I LOVE Dan Malone's work, though. I think he's an absolute genius. I wonder if he was just instructed to add more colour because of the palette increase, or if he was rushed, or what. I know Gary Carr was responsible for some of the graphics. Maybe Malone didn't make the call at all. Last edited by JohnnyWalker; 31 December 2019 at 19:20.

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30 December 2019, 13:56	#81
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,161	it's a completely different game. But some EAB users used kroah editor to create 2 levels (level 1 & level 3). Not a complete level set, though. shame

30 December 2019, 15:59	#82
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	TCD created some New Chaos Engine levels with Exl's editor Exl did some Excellent!!! Editors.

31 December 2019, 09:49	#85
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,161	I enjoyed playing the sequel one year ago. I even made it to the first boss. I must admit, at higher levels, I lost interest. Shame as the graphics are awesome. But the "speedball II / fight the other when you don't know where he is on a split screen" wore me off after a while. The missions are multi-part, the computer knows what to do at once, but you don't and it takes several attempts to figure it out. Really too bad, as more CE levels could have been done with the same full AA graphics

31 December 2019, 15:18	#87
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,161	maybe the aztec level suffered from too much moisture & moss attack But the overal AA processing was very good. If you remove all the greenness of the image, the other colors are good. Of course 16-color Chaos Engine palette is astounding, but the 256 color rework didn't impress me. I wish they had created a 32 or 256 color game from scratch besides CE2. And yes, Dan Malone is a genius

31 December 2019, 16:58	#89
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,161	"PD game" seems unfair. There's a lot of AI, the graphics are much better than a lot of games, the music is an original RJ composition and is very good. Everything shines ... except gameplay which is very stressful and difficult to understand.

31 December 2019, 17:46	#90
Dastardly Into the Wonderful Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: England Age: 49 Posts: 2,335	Yeah, maybe comparing it to a PD game is too strong. It's just that when they set such high standards with their previous game, this one just looks even worse compared to it. If it was called something else and made by a different team I probably wouldn't judge it so harshly.

01 January 2020, 15:31	#92
Dastardly Into the Wonderful Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: England Age: 49 Posts: 2,335	Yeah, as I said, I could be wrong about Malone's involvement. It's just that some of the level graphics in CE2 don't seem anywhere near as well drawn to me. There are quite a few graphic artists listed in the credits so maybe their contributions are the difference I can see. It would be nice to see a break down of exactly who did what.

01 January 2020, 20:47	#93
JohnnyWalker aka ThunderPeel2001 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 303	I'm currently reading "Universe" (the Bitmap Brothers biography) and I think I finally understand what went on. Dan Malone talks about CE2 briefly. He was quite involved, it seems, but the book also says that the Bitmaps were pushing toward the Sega Megadrive at that time as the Amiga was dying. The thing about the Megadrive is that it apparently has a PALETTE of 512 colours. So Malone was forced to recolour a lot of things. If they were making CE2 with that in mind, he would have been forced to work with that very limited range of colours, and possibly with a different audience's considerations to think about. That might explain the sudden garish shift. Or maybe Malone just felt like a change... shrug. Also it's mentioned that, as expected, there was some internal friction between the AGA/CD32 versions. Eric Matthews didn't want them to port the games, he wanted to build something that was made specifically for new hardware. Unfortunately the Bitmaps didn't needed a quick injection from simple ports. A weird compromise was made where (seemingly almost arbitrary) quick changes were made to at least show they weren't straight ports. Hence the weird colouring on Speedball II and the annoying audio. The CD32 had Malone creating a whole new animated sequence (which I never liked myself), and the introduction of more colours -- because they could. What amazing is that Malone seems just as enthused about these games as we are. At one point he talks about wanting to create 50 more players in the Speedball II world, just so people can see what else he had planned. I really wish he'd been involved in the godawful Speedball II remasters! I wonder how much the rights to build a remaster are?

19 November 2020, 11:22	#94
JohnnyWalker aka ThunderPeel2001 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 303	Kroah, not sure if you're still updating your superb reverse engineering tools, but I spotted a bug in your GODS one last night: If you try to look at the triggering events around Level 2's Guardian it will crash. Amazingly fascinating stuff though. Thanks for making them!!! For anyone who isn't aware there are now tools for: The Chaos Engine, Speedball II (at least to play), Magic Pockets, Cadaver and many more http://bringerp.free.fr/RE/ Brilliant stuff

16 January 2021, 22:02	#96
JohnnyWalker aka ThunderPeel2001 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 303	Hi Kroah, I've just seen this reply now (I don't visit the boards very often). Thanks.

16 January 2021, 23:29	#98
gimbal cheeky scoundrel Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Spijkenisse/Netherlands Age: 42 Posts: 6,906	Technically it's not needed, but it is just so disrespectful to not do it.

16 January 2021, 23:42	#99
jotd This cat is no more Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: FRANCE Age: 52 Posts: 8,161	Not nice, specially because he had access to the original code and rewrote it in C/C++/whatever. without the original code he'd been left with f*ck-all. (maybe not for Richard Joseph wrote the amiga version of the music module and the sfx code, I suppose none of the music or code were left in the remastered version)

20 January 2021, 16:30	#100
JohnnyWalker aka ThunderPeel2001 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Age: 45 Posts: 303	And even ignoring the code itself, what about the game design? Eric Matthews and Steve Tall did everything: All the levels, puzzles, mechanics, etc. Just because you rewrote the code doesn't mean the game design itself doesn't need to be credited! As for Richard Joseph, what about the actual sound effects? Even if his SFX code/music module wasn't used, someone still designed the sound for the game. I'm surprised Mike Montgomery (who IS credited as "owner" of The Bitmap Bros) didn't say anything. The only Bitmap Bros properly credited by the developer was Mark Coleman, for his graphics. So weird

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