14 January 2021, 17:58 | #81 | ||
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14 January 2021, 19:06 | #82 | |
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The A1200 cap rating is something like an order of magnitude out, is it possible a typo in the design? |
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14 January 2021, 20:52 | #83 | |
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To really make a useful comparison, you need an analog audio wave a staring point. Each machine must be allowed to sample and playback that tone at a sample frequency that best matches it’s inner workings. |
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14 January 2021, 21:13 | #84 | |
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But I think that cannot be never compensated enough, Paula quantization levels are too raw (the PCM part) and the PWM need to be handled as a separate effect from pure sampling. If the original wave is sampled at CCK submultiple then probably all you need is a good calibration to get from Paula her best, probably not much but a little better . |
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14 January 2021, 21:17 | #85 | ||
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FFT should be performed coherently, you should apply proper windowing and few other things. You should avoid signals with frequencies being "nice" numbers (to test each DAC code word, stimulus shall be uncorrelated with sampling rate - that's why audio industry use 997Hz instead 1kHz - with proper testing time and averaging you can test whole DAC codebook i.e. get proper DAC dynamics and SNR as dynamics is not SNR). Can't upload few other pdf's due size limitations for attachments. |
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14 January 2021, 21:39 | #86 |
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Actually... that begs the question who and how measured Paula 14 bit method as 14 bit in the first place. If ever...
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14 January 2021, 21:45 | #87 |
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14 January 2021, 22:29 | #88 | |
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(Plus things like sound dithering by using high sample-frequency) But that step would in a fair comparison be part of the sampling-process. So the question still remaining is, how close can Paula match a certain analog tune (using all possible tricks) in comparison to standard 16bit PC audio. Last edited by Gorf; 14 January 2021 at 22:35. |
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14 January 2021, 22:58 | #89 |
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14 January 2021, 23:46 | #90 | |
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Voices, instruments sound real. Even the dynamic range is good. The Amiga 1200 sound even better for real than the stream I put up. When Audacity join the Amiga L,R channels there are some info that get lost in the mixing. I understand Thomas wanted to proof that Amiga can not do 14bit and I'm sure he have. It does matter little anyway. 10bit or whatever is good enough. Put down the kHz and the audio quality will suffer and not sound real. How much depends on different instruments etc. I would say it is very easy to hear on voices when the kHz is 22Hz instead of 44.1Hz. From what I understand bit is the noise floor. Difference between quiet and loud. 16-bit is insane. Only some orchestral recordings take advantage of something close to that. All pop, rock music are compressed and have little dynamic range. When there are quiet passages you will hear some noise from the Amiga, but with latest EaglePlayer he got that noise very low. Color me impressed! Sorry to all that have other Amiga models cause Amiga 1200 sound by far the best. Last edited by nikosidis; 15 January 2021 at 00:05. |
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15 January 2021, 23:32 | #91 | |||
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Other DACs can also have these issues. For example the Burr-Brown DAC56, a 16 bit DAC commonly used in early CD players, has '12-bit monotonicity guaranteed'. So are all the CD players using this chip actually only 12 bit? Of course not. Another factor that 'scientific' tests often don't take into account is the response of the human ear, including psychoacoustic effects. For a fair comparison the signal should at least be 'A' weighted, so that components outside the normal hearing range are suppressed. Signals should also be evaluated at different levels corresponding to the dynamic range of music, rather than just at maximum volume where audio masking tends to suppress low level noise and distortion. Depending on the type of distortion, a system may sound better or worse than scientific measurements suggest. In the old days of class A tube amplifiers an amp with 10% harmonic distortion at rated output sounded pretty good because the distortion was mostly low order harmonics that gradually increased as the volume level increased. Then Class B transistor amps with large negative feedback were introduced. The large negative feedback greatly reduced high volume distortion, but caused hard clipping on the slightest overload, and crossover distortion produced high order harmonics that were plainly audible even when measurements showed less than 1% distortion. What's worse is the crossover distortion became more prominent as signal level reduced. In response to this audio engineers demanded even lower distortion figures that would be way below audible levels in a class A amp. If 14 bit Paula audio can reproduce sound with sample amplitudes below the minimum quantization level of 11 bits then it is more than 11 bits. There may be a lot of distortion at that level, but it still has the required resolution to reproduce the low level sound, and that gives it the dynamic range needed to play 'hi-fi' music (which is the biggest problem with standard 8 bit audio). In the end it comes down to what it sounds like to the human ear, so while listening tests may be 'unscientific' they are just as valid or even more so than naive 'scientific' tests. Instruments have the advantage of being objective, but the data can be misleading or even irrelevant if not related to the real goal, which is our perception of the sound quality. Unfortunately (or fortunately) many of us are getting on in years and our ears aren't what they used to be. I can barely tell the difference between the filter being on and off in my A1200, because my hearing is 30dB down above 3kHz and I have constant tinnitus which masks higher frequencies. The older I get, the better Paula sounds! |
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16 January 2021, 00:06 | #92 | |
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Practice daily for a few months and the tinnitus will fade away . |
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16 January 2021, 00:13 | #93 | |
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16 January 2021, 00:45 | #94 |
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Bruce Abbott: Very well written. I'm sure distortion and noise to a degree can be a good thing, in many cases it will give warmer, fuller sound. At least if a recording is not very good and on the analytical side. Most pop, rock recordings sound best when the signal is not too clean. Hi-Fi equipment. setup that is to analytical is for most to cold and at loud levels are not nice on the ear, unless the recording is first class.
I think Paula sound warm and nice but can also be to dull on some models. My Amiga 500 rev. 3 sound very dull. Last edited by nikosidis; 16 January 2021 at 01:00. |
16 January 2021, 09:27 | #95 |
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There is nothing funny about tinnitus. I also have it and it got quite a bit worse with my covid infection.
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16 January 2021, 10:49 | #96 | |
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In the end, you get a non-linear transfer curve with staircases not fitting together. Or, to put it in different terms: An ideal DAC is equivalent to applying a mid-level uniform equi-quantizer to the signal (which is the ideal quantizer in the high-bitrate regime). However, what the Amiga produces is a non-uniform quantizer whose quanitzation levels are so distorted that you miss 30dB, which is equivalent to missing 5 bits. Said quite simply: The staircases do not fit toghether at all. The whole setup cannot work quite right since the calibration precision of all DACs involved is way above the limits required for 14 bit quality. That is not surprising, of course. It was never designed or manufactured to such precise quality. |
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16 January 2021, 12:23 | #97 | |
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Only bypassing the PWM stage, ie at volume 64, you have an output signal comparable to a normal PCM converter DAC. For all other volume values it is never true! So the calibration or signal management to have output levels with a dynamics comparable to x-bits is not trivial. EDIT: Unless you mean what Paula's PWM provides is a form of 'standard' DAC. Instead I see it as a form of manipulation and change on the analog/time domain (coupled to the filter), from the original PCM signal, that give you a crude form of volume change. So saying that you are adding up, is like saying that you are adding oranges to apples... to have a basket full of apples at the end. And in fact by making a simple sum you certainly can't have 14 bit Last edited by ross; 16 January 2021 at 13:12. |
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16 January 2021, 12:48 | #98 | ||
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Do you have an idea why your figures are so much lower? |
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16 January 2021, 13:30 | #99 |
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Maybe it is Thomas A2000 that is that bad. I guess my A500 rev. 3 board is that bad too.
A1200 is nothing near that bad SNR. At least around 60db I would say is correct for A1200, EaglePlayer, 14bit amp. |
16 January 2021, 14:11 | #100 |
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Repeated the experiment with EaglePlayer. The result is pretty much the same, it is 31.80 dB, whereas the previous play16 output was 31.87dB, which is identical within the expected tolerance. Video mode was productivity.
Also, despite some people claiming otherwise, there were dropouts during the playback. Of course, my recording was made without such drop-outs. |
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