Out of place memory req. with original of Beach Volley and with Quik & Silva

[SquawkBox]

For some reason, the original of Beach Volley [1249] won't load unless it detects 0.5 Mb of slow / fast ram (additional ram). Unless I am mistaken, the game doesn't require (nor make use) of any additional ram. Issue can easily be reproduced both with WinUAE and the actual machine (mine is fitted with 1 Mb chip, but it's the same issue with memory cut down to 0.5 Mb chip, which I can accomplish thanks to a switch).

[New Sky]

Hello,

Indeed, it does not work without having 512 KB of Slow, even on WinUAE.

Is it a "lost" and "recently" found original ?

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

For some reason, the original of Beach Volley [1249] won't load unless it detects 0.5 Mb of slow / fast ram (additional ram). Unless I am mistaken, the game doesn't require (nor make use) of any additional ram. Issue can easily be reproduced both with WinUAE and the actual machine (mine is fitted with 1 Mb chip, but it's the same issue with memory cut down to 0.5 Mb chip, which I can accomplish thanks to a switch).

This game works with A500 Kick 1.3 and 512kb of chip.

[SquawkBox]

As far as I am concerned, the issue here is whether the original (I mean floppy disk original) works with 512kb of chip or not. I would guess any A1000 or standard A500 could handle Beach Volley original (floppy disk original again) without having recourse to any memory expansion, hence the question remains (assuming Ocean didn't release two or more different "originals" with different mem requirements), why the IPF would require more ram, more specifically slow ram.

This can be verified by attempting to load the IPF (numbered 1249) with A500 Kick 1.3 and 512kb of chip, or with an Amiga deprived of any slow ram (e.q. mine, or any other ECS machine fitted with 1 MB of chip or more only). If two versions of Beach Volley were sold / cracked back in the days, then two separate IPF's should have been produced by the SPS team.

[New Sky]

Hello,

WinUAE settings are correct for a basic A500. To try to find an answer, I tested several cracked versions and some do not pass with only 512 Kb. The loading stops at the same place as the version in IPF with a black screen.

OK with 512 Ko:
--------------
https://www.planetemu.net/rom/commod...fs-t-2-trilogy

https://www.planetemu.net/rom/commod...ocean-cr-qtx-7

https://www.planetemu.net/rom/commod...-cr-qtx-m-clan

NOK with 512 Ko:
---------------
https://www.planetemu.net/rom/commod...ocean-cr-acc-4

* Version with the "byte bandit virus" *
https://www.planetemu.net/rom/commod...-v-byte-bandit

There must be two versions published at the time, one for 512 KB only (which I had cracked in 1990) and another requiring 512 KB of Chip + 512 KB of Slow. Is it intentional or just an error during the compilation, you should ask Michel Janicki if he remembers it.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by New Sky

which I had cracked in 1990

Which I had a cracked version of (else, peeps will think you coded the crack for that version back in the days ).

Also, it's not useful to mention versions bearing a virus, except if you want to elaborate about the virus itself. Since we wish for Amiga owners to try those versions requiring slow ram on their machine and report about it, we don't want to mention versions hit by a virus, even with a warning. Consider they were included in TOSEC for preservation purposes only. I know the emulation crowd, especially French , grabs them and spread them as long as they load properly with such and such emulator, but really it's not "good practice" in my opinion.

[New Sky]

Yes ! Typo for the cracked version.

Paranoimia's version is just there to get another one that doesn't pass with just 512 KB, hence the caveat.

By searching in the cracked versions, the solution was found. Read the last message:

https://www.amigafrance.com/forums/t...-512-ko-de-ram

[SquawkBox]

I've read the last message, and I can't consider it solves anything. It's Ok for me to use one of the regular cracked versions (by regular I mean 512k chip only), but I am a generous person (not really, but anyway ) and I am trying to help those who would like to play that game from original AND whose miggy doesn't bear any slow ram e.q. A600 + Gotek.

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

This game works with A500 Kick 1.3 and 512kb of chip.

Now, that sounds quite straightforward, right ? "This game", I would assume too boxed original copy works with 1.3 Kickstart and 512k of chip. Why ? Because it's such an old title (1989), documentation mentions full compatibility with Amiga 500, but also with Amiga 1000.

Hunting an original (actual floppy disks bearing the original game) with different memory requirements would be the only way to prove another version does exist (e.q. reissue, budget version etc.). Now, reading backwards that Amiga France thread, someone did mention a fix to keep the game (adding add36k to the startup sequence) within the 512k chip limit. That's nice of him but what I am trying to achieve here is a bit different. Ideally, I would like Denis to process again the original he owns and withdraw the current IPF in favor of a cleaner one. The way I see it, any IPF is supposed to behave *exactly* like the original game it is issued from.

Cracked versions are usually heavily modified, just because you notice some similarities between the IPF and the Accumulators version when you fired up WinUAE doesn't mean anything, most likely, it's just a coincidence. Aladin did pull your legs most probably, unexpanded Amiga were common back in the days, who would deny it (as a teen, I had one of these, adding 2nd FDD later on was the only modification I had made to it). Having said that, even if we ignore that fact, there were quite a few pre-AGA Amiga models deprived of any slow ram but yeah 99% of these people and 100% of EAB use a regular cracked version, and don't mind for any issue one would have to deal with as far as the original (the IPF, or its Gotek equivalent) is concerned.

Of course, it's up to Denis to look into this potential issue (up to him). Personally, I think it's worth the effort even if it only applies to 1% of gotek users (those who, philosophically speaking, are reluctant to using cracked versions. Hey, it takes every kind of people as they say ) .

[Galahad/FLT]

I think the Beach Volley issue is that Ocean France have used AmigaDOS which they don't normally do, and 1989/90 was the crossover period from OCS to ECS.

I suspect Beach Volley works perfectly fine in 512K on 1.2 and 1.3 OCS machines, but ECS is where things start to go wrong, and likely by the time the budget version was to be released, 1 meg machines were no longer the minority so it didn't become a problem that Ocean felt they had to fix?

[ross]

I think there is nothing wrong with this IPF (it's just wrong per se ).

The game (which uses files in normal OFS format) just doesn't care about allocating anything and overwrites memory without regards.
It is enough just the difference in allocation the system do for the Workbech's initial disk prompting screen, to accidentally allow it to work.
Of course only with KS1.x because from 2.0+ more chip memory is required to work.

So: wait for the hand splash screen to appear, then insert the disk and it will work with only 512KB of chip-ram.
As for machines with 1MB of chip-ram, I'm pretty sure I patched this floppy a while ago.

[SquawkBox]

Have you ever stumbled upon a budget release of Beach Volley ? That would imply the first edition is missing from Denis collection of originals since only one single IPF was released.

I only have a vague idea about how "IPF'ification" of such and such dump works, and I trust the SPS team to do their best with so many slight variations but there is something I am curious about : Do their methods evolve with time ? I mean, assuming that particular IPF was produced e.q. 8 years ago, is there any chance a for a "cleaner" IPF by today's standards, methods and tools ?

It's not the nicest thing to say I know but until proven otherwise, I can't help but thinking said IPF a) was issued from the only commercial version in existence b) is knackered -a very uncommon event- or let's say altered and wasn't checked thoroughly fresh out of the oven since no one had bothered playing the original from gotek before on an unexpanded machine.

It would completely baffle me that Ocean would re-release that huge hit with different memory requirements, thereby alienating themselves from half (Ok, one third maybe, by 1989) of their consumer base. A publisher astutely fixing a game for 1 MB chip machines over the course of time, I've seen it done a couple of times, but the other way round err...

[ross]

I have no idea if there are different versions of this game, but I guess you just need to check the contents of the various cracks and see if they contain a different code base.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by ross

I think there is nothing wrong with this IPF (it's just wrong per se ).

The game (which uses files in normal OFS format) just doesn't care about allocating anything and overwrites memory without regards.
It is enough just the difference in allocation the system do for the Workbech's initial disk prompting screen, to accidentally allow it to work.
Of course only with KS1.x because from 2.0+ more chip memory is required to work.

So: wait for the hand splash screen to appear, then insert the disk and it will work with only 512KB of chip-ram.
As for machines with 1MB of chip-ram, I'm pretty sure I patched this floppy a while ago.

Oh... dear!

[Aardvark]

Originally Posted by ross

So: wait for the hand splash screen to appear, then insert the disk and it will work with only 512KB of chip-ram.
As for machines with 1MB of chip-ram, I'm pretty sure I patched this floppy a while ago.

This reminds me of The Settlers back in the day with 1MB A500. Inserting the floppy before the hand screen would make 35% of the sounds available, but inserting afterwards would only give 22%.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by ross

I have no idea if there are different versions of this game, but I guess you just need to check the contents of the various cracks and see if they contain a different code base.

Beach Volley is kick 1.3 only. Back in the day i had access to Beach Volley Hit squad release, and from memory, it never worked on kick 2.0.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Have you ever stumbled upon a budget release of Beach Volley ? That would imply the first edition is missing from Denis collection of originals since only one single IPF was released.

I know it exists (i got it, but it was Kick1.3 not kick2.0).

I only have a vague idea about how "IPF'ification" of such and such dump works, and I trust the SPS team to do their best with so many slight variations but there is something I am curious about : Do their methods evolve with time ? I mean, assuming that particular IPF was produced e.q. 8 years ago, is there any chance a for a "cleaner" IPF by today's standards, methods and tools ?

You can't get anything cleaner than an IPF. We don't make IPF out of modified games or tricked games. IPF = the original like the companies released them.

It's not the nicest thing to say I know but until proven otherwise, I can't help but thinking said IPF a) was issued from the only commercial version in existence b) is knackered -a very uncommon event- or let's say altered and wasn't checked thoroughly fresh out of the oven since no one had bothered playing the original from gotek before on an unexpanded machine.

It's not knackered. On A500+, using kick2.0, you need to use a Kick1.3 degrader to make the game run.

It would completely baffle me that Ocean would re-release that huge hit with different memory requirements, thereby alienating themselves from half (Ok, one third maybe, by 1989) of their consumer base. A publisher astutely fixing a game for 1 MB chip machines over the course of time, I've seen it done a couple of times, but the other way round err...

It's not a huge hit, but a small game with great graphics and sloppy gameplay.

The IPF 1249 is the retail version (read= 1st version release).

If anyone has the budget version and wants to dump it, please do so.

[SquawkBox]

@dlfr
It (I mean the IPF, or the converted for gotek image) won't work on ANY Amiga, except if that Amiga is fitted with slow / trapdoor ram ram. Also, it's a bit confusing when you keep on talking about "the game", do you imply the IPF, the original on floppy disk ?

My machine is not an A500 +, it's a 1 MB chip Amiga 500 rev. 6, and fortunately I can switch between 1.3 and 3.1 Kickstart so the choice of most compatible kickstart is not an issue for me.

That IPF numbered 1249
or the corresponding HFE
won't load on ANY Amiga
which isn't fitted with 512k slow ram or more
aka it's not compliant to the original (the physical copy, the boxed game that was sold by Ocean) at least in terms of memory requirements, since the latter loads fine with kickstart 1.3 and 512k chip only (Well, I never bought the game but the documentation mentions full compatibility with the Amiga 1000 so...). Just between you and me, it's not the easiest thing to do to draw your attention on a problem which involves preservation. Use kickstart 1.3, use kickstart 1.3 I've read from you numerous times, all right, you win, I will . Also, NewSky has told us / you that the exact same issue can be reproduced when loading IPF in WinUAE with quickstart config.

Sloppy gameplay ? That's because we have lost touch with the controls over the years. I have a fond memory of that game, it was quite fun even though the IA remains the same game after game.

Originally Posted by ross

As for machines with 1MB of chip-ram, I'm pretty sure I patched this floppy a while ago.

Ah yes, now I see it, you hacked twice the Quartex version (the second time to add NTSC support).

wait for the hand splash screen to appear, then insert the disk and it will work with only 512KB of chip-ram.

You can't do such thing when using a gotek I think.

[Aardvark]

WinUAE 1.3 ROM 512 Chip only Quickstart config. Wait for the hand screen, then mount the IPF. The game will load.

[dlfrsilver]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

@dlfr
It (I mean the IPF, or the converted for gotek image) won't work on ANY Amiga, except if that Amiga is fitted with slow / trapdoor ram ram. Also, it's a bit confusing when you keep on talking about "the game", do you imply the IPF, the original on floppy disk ?

IPF or floppy disk it's the same.

My machine is not an A500 +, it's a 1 MB chip Amiga 500 rev. 6, and fortunately I can switch between 1.3 and 3.1 Kickstart so the choice of most compatible kickstart is not an issue for me.

This game is very possibly one of those games only working with 512kb of ram and not with 1mb.

That IPF numbered 1249 or the corresponding HFE won't load on ANY Amiga
which isn't fitted with 512k slow ram or more aka it's not compliant to the original (the physical copy, the boxed game that was sold by Ocean) at least in terms of memory requirements, since the latter loads fine with kickstart 1.3 and 512k chip only (Well, I never bought the game but the documentation mentions full compatibility with the Amiga 1000 so...). [/quote]

It loads on my A500 with kick1.3 and 512kb of chip. that's the configuration for which ocean sold the game.

You're stuck because you have already a kick1.3, but your 1mb of chip can't be reduced to 512kb of chip.

Your Amiga is a version or a model almost non existant. the 1mb chip machine mostly came with the A500+ with its kickstart 2.0x.

Beach volley is working on my A500 with Gotek if i follow the rule explained above: i let my A500 show the kick1.3 hand on screen, then i plug the USB key in the gotek, i choose Beach Volley, and voilà ! it loads

Just between you and me, it's not the easiest thing to do to draw your attention on a problem which involves preservation. Use kickstart 1.3, use kickstart 1.3 I've read from you numerous times, all right, you win, I will . Also, NewSky has told us / you that the exact same issue can be reproduced when loading IPF in WinUAE with quickstart config.

the problem doesn't come from the IPF. The IPF represent the exact data from the original disk. The problem comes from the unorthodox amiga type you use with the game. And i have no fix for that (out of Ross' fixes for the game). This is not a preservation problem ! Ask anyone you want : Galahad, Ross, Stingray, it's a problem related to the coding of Beach Volley.

So since it's not a preservation problem, what do you want me to do ?

Sloppy gameplay ? That's because we have lost touch with the controls over the years. I have a fond memory of that game, it was quite fun even though the IA remains the same game after game.

Yes sloppy. Pretty to watch, terrible to play with.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

It loads on my A500 with kick1.3 and 512kb of chip. that's the configuration for which ocean sold the game.

The documentation also mentions Amiga 1000, hence it's not exclusive to Amiga 500 owners.

You're stuck because you have already a kick1.3, but your 1mb of chip can't be reduced to 512kb of chip.

Yes it can, the seller installed another metal switch just to disable the additional 512k chip mem at will . Also, for games that require 512k chip + 512k slow, I can use fake-mem. It's hit and miss though.

Your Amiga is a version or a model almost non existant. the 1mb chip machine mostly came with the A500+ with its kickstart 2.0x.

How do you mean ? Like a bastardised Amiga 500 plus ? I like that, sounds funky! On a more serious note, at its core, my miggy is a rev. 6a A500. The seller used that common trick which consists in soldering some traces to turn the additional slow mem into chip mem (it is deliberate, I wanted it that way), result ? OCS it is not, but 1.3 Kickstart and 512k chip mem only, yeah it fits the bill (having in mind the situations which would have me to halving the available chip ram are very seldom, Wayne Gretzky Hockey I anyone ?). Overall, I think you exaggerate things a bit here.

Beach volley is working on my A500 with Gotek if i follow the rule explained above: i let my A500 show the kick1.3 hand on screen, then i plug the USB key in the gotek

All right, I tried that method and guess what, it works even in 1024k chip mode! I could play the game from the HFE v3 image! Now, one important question remains, why does the game require the rule you described ? Why can't it load normally ? Do you need to go through that rule to play from your physical copy of Beach Volley ? I would guess not.

Sooo, if it's not down to the IPF, nor to my meg of chip ram, that leaves us to : The culprit ought to be the gotek (some unimplemented instructions within the HFE v3 format presumably, keirf you've got work to do ). As a side note, another rule of thumb could be described as such : Any machine fitted with slow ram (in addition to the usual chip ram) can boot the original game without having recourse to rule #1. Food for thought.