Anyone still playing some Playstation 1?

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by sneckburger

Just placed an order for one of these.

Dude, what have you just done ?
Just joking... Well, it looks similar to the pound cable, check it here . As I said earlier, if I am not mistaken, input lag is down to how your TV works with upscaled PS1 signals and it can be worsen by the use of wireless controllers. And Retro Nerd is right, 2X might not be sufficient for the PS1, I've seen somewhere 3,5X is ideal.

Originally Posted by lilwshu

I have a Retrotink 2x SCART and it works very well with my PS1 and Saturn.

Maybe I will go that route too eventually for my PS1 and PAL Gamecube. I've given this some thought, and this is my conclusion (not taking into account more "complex" solutions, such as the OSSC or the Framemeister) : Wouldn't it be a better course of action to do it likeso :
a) Using a Scart to component transcoder (Mike Chi has built a couple of these incidentally, but other companies make these too, as the saying goes, don't put all of your eggs in the same basket)
b) Doing from this point on component to Retro Tink 2X Classic or Pro, instead of directly conveying the signal from the Scart cable to that new member of the Retrotink family.

As a side note, if some of you are put off by PS1 3D games, what can be said about Saturn ones ? Speaking for myself, what distracts me is not so much how the 3D looks but the ubiquitous clipping in racing games, that and seeing the same games mentioned over and over from watching top 50 / top 100 Saturn games on youtube (especially Alien Trilogy, I grow so tired of watching excerpts of that particular FPS oh bwoy!). Don't know, it makes me feel bad about the Saturn trying so hard to compete with PS1 in the Doom-like genre, when the general consensus is that they should have focused on 2D games. Powerslave probably exemplifying the exception rather than the rule.

[jizmo]

This might be relevant for this thread:

Support for experimental texture replacement now in Beetle PSX HW

[Hewitson]

Why do you guys make life so difficult with all these converters, upscalers, etc? Get an RGB SCART cable. Job done.

[lilwshu]

"Why" is generally:

Built in RGB SCART sockets on modern TVs where they exist are subject to lag and image quality issues;
Most modern TVs don't have RGB SCART sockets

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Why do you guys make life so difficult with all these converters, upscalers, etc? Get an RGB SCART cable. Job done.

SCART does not exist here in states.

[Retro-Nerd]

Connecting an old game console with mostly lores graphics via RGB cable, or a cheap HMDI converter, looks like crap. I'm amazed how good it looks via OSSC. Lightyears better than direct connection which mostly gets wrongly detected as interlaced from the most TVs.

SCART does not exist here in states.

And that too.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by Anubis

SCART does not exist here in states.

It doesn't exist in Australia either, but very good quality RGB to YUV converters are available.

Originally Posted by lilwshu

Built in RGB SCART sockets on modern TVs where they exist are subject to lag and image quality issues;
Most modern TVs don't have RGB SCART sockets

Well, that would be my other question. Why play a PS1 on a modern TV?

[Retro-Nerd]

While i'm a CRT fanatic it looks amazing on my LED monitor.







btw: All those normal converters (like the mentioned RGB to YUV) are for video material, not gaming machines. I've seen them all, and they are not good enough.

[rare_j]

Originally Posted by jizmo

This might be relevant for this thread:

Support for experimental texture replacement now in Beetle PSX HW

Very impressive and I'm tempted to buy a PC that can run this emulator and get it all set up.
The retropie raspberry pi emulator is a bit bare bones, it doesn't do the texture warping fix and it very likely won't do the hi res texture maps either.

[sneckburger]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Why do you guys make life so difficult with all these converters, upscalers, etc? Get an RGB SCART cable. Job done.

I'm happy with rgb scart output on the older tvs in our house but the wall mounted samsung tv in my living room only has 4 hdmi inputs and component. It supports composite too but it looks crap.
I would have a CRT but I'd have to remodel the living room and the missus might not appreciate the drop in size to a measly 26inch. ?.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

All those normal converters (like the mentioned RGB to YUV) are for video material, not gaming machines.

For this upcoming PS1 upscaling project, the transcoder is not supposed to do all the work, I made it clear to use a transcoder in conjunction with a Retro Tink 2X (or any other scaler) to upscale properly, I didn't say use it as standalone and be done with it, did I ? Btw, ask yourself, why are HD Retrovision component cables for classic consoles so popular ? First and foremost reason is lack of RGB scart in the US, also it should be noted that changing the colorspace might make things easier for scalers and LCD TVs (480i/p looks relatively washed out on a LCD through RGB scart). For one, some folks are happy with component from a RGB console on their TV, like this guy who uses one with his Mega Drive. He seems perfectly glad with the transcoded signal on his consumer grade CRT TV, and no other device attached :


[ Show youtube player ]

You must be aware it's not uncommon for some demanding folks to use tried purely video scalers e.q. the DVDO iScan Pro VP30 or 50 instead of the OSSC. Not within every one's reach obviously, both in terms of how unaffordable it is and of complex it is to master, a viable solution for gaming nontheless, while such high grade scaler belongs firmly to the video equipment market.

I recently got this 15'' LG old gen LCD TV to sit next to my 22'' Samsung CRT TV (which display looks awesome with big N pre-Wii consoles, among which a RGB modded N64, very natural scanlines and razor sharp image, even you would be impressed, presumably!). I tried the PAL Gamecube on it, result was subpar, that's why I want to "upgrade" and be trying the Retro Tink 2X on it. Might have something to do with the way this particular TV inteprets 480i / 576i RGB signal. I've read somewhere some LCD TVs will interpret things as if signal was coming from a DVD, and thus soften the picture. All games are perfectly playable but the image is not crisp. Ok, back to RGB to component transcoding, of course, if you get a cheap one you will get mediocre results, this one from Shinybow seems like a fine unit, there are other quality brands out there :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shinybow-...r/253024250184
One potential issue with the Retro Tink 2X Scart is that it doesn't offer (analog to digital) passthrough. That might be problem if you want to use a 6th gen console and you receiver doesn't support 960i (480i x 2). Doesn't imply it's a bad device, just something to have in mind. I decided I wouldn't be getting the Genesis + adapter HD Retrovision cable for the PS1. Could it be that a video transcoder isn't such a good trade-off ? Time will tell. Similarly, until Insurrection industries restock their wonderful component cable recreation, I won't be getting the official component cable for the GC for obvious reasons (some dude from Paris sells it for about... 180 quids, not interested either by the GCHD mk-ii adapter from Eon, but GC users who want to play on the big screen might benefit from getting one).
So, to sum it up, I am getting the Retro Tink 2X pro from VGP, a Lindy RGB to component transcoder from amazon, the necessary set of cables (including a uber rare 8-pin mini din to d-sub VGA, which I am importing from Los Angeles, California, more on that later).
First goal, to see how the Retro Tink 2X Pro deals with the PS1 on my 19'' HP Compaq LCD computer monitor through VGA (I'll be using an HDMI to VGA cable)
Second goal, to see how the Retro Tink 2X Pro deals with the PS1 on my 22'' Mitsubishi CRT computer monitor through my VGA box
Third goal, to see how the Retro Tink 2X Pro deals with the Gamecube on my 19'' HP Compaq LCD (I know the Retro Tink 2X cannot deal with 480p input signal, but being a PAL console, my GC is limited to 480i / 576i @60Hz anyway)
Fourth goal, to see how the Retro Tink 2X Pro deals with the Gamecube on my 22'' Mitsubishi computer monitor through my VGA box.
The VGA box I will be using for this project is a compact and nifty device, out of stock since a long time but I found a few traces of it on the internet, check it here if you're interested to know more about its specs. It bears component & S-Video inputs, but no line doubling capabilities, works great along with the softmodded PS2 btw. Effectively, I can play normal and 480p enabled games on the CRT with a 1024x768 resolution @50 or 60Hz, depending on the game region. For the record, through S-Video, the signal from my Amiga 500 is detected as "PAL" (I do adjust resolution of the CRT to 1280x1024 for the miggy aka 5:4), while the PS1 simply won't display any image (too low resolution). I'll keep you posted.

[Retro-Nerd]

As i said, i'm not satisfied enough with a 2x solution. 3x looks much better, and PAL in 4x on a 25" 1080p/27" 1440p monitor is gorgeous. I would imagine that the Retrotink looks nice enough on smaller displays though for older consoles. Dreamcast, Gamecube and PS2 maybe too, in 1:1 passthrough.

Originally Posted by rare_j

Very impressive and I'm tempted to buy a PC that can run this emulator and get it all set up.
The retropie raspberry pi emulator is a bit bare bones, it doesn't do the texture warping fix and it very likely won't do the hi res texture maps either.

Tested it yesterday. Look nice, but at the moment it's just a proof of concept that a PSX emulator finally supports texture injection. I'm sure we will see much better results from custom made textures later. This is just AI software upscaled.

[SquawkBox]

Well, do the math, it's not 2x, it's a two pass upscale job, so to speak : 2x first, then 1,6x (240p x 2 = 480p, 480p x 1,6, aka 240p taken to 768p). Simply put, it has to do with what my VGA box will accept since as I said earlier on, 240p is simply too low a resolution for it to display anything but a black screen. In other words, I need the line doubling upstream to upscale to 768p (1024x768 @75Hz, but I could pick up other resolutions and refresh rate, that Items VGA box is quite versatile). PS1 lovers can cherry pick info from my project and / or from other members' suggestions, feedback is always welcome, fine by me.
Upscaling the Gamecube on a LCD TV, whether big or small may require something a bit more beefy than a Retro Tink 2X (or even an OSSC, maybe the upcoming OSSC Pro), furthermore, things might get nasty in widescreen. I believe it's every gamer's wet dream to be able to play F-Zero GX on a big LCD or plasma TV in widescreen, but the path is full of pitfalls.

[Retro-Nerd]

Dreamcast looks actually nice in 2x 525p mode on OSSC.










Tried that 1360/1366x768p resolution on my Pananonic via OSSC, but it won't accept it. Only certain consoles via Line 3x in 1280x720p. Recent LG TVs are probably more capable in supporting all that modes.



I don't want an additional scaling device/converter/transcoder which adds lag to it. This interlaced resolutions from e.g. the PS2 is nasty stuff. But i don't own any of the newer consoles, except the Dreamcast which fortunately output progessive video.

[sneckburger]

The cable from right sprite arrived and I've been using it on my 50 inch Samsung tv with my PS1
Not noticed any lag issues and picture is clear and sharp. A vast improvement over the laughable orange ps1 dongle junk on ebay.
Might not be as good as the retrotink but at least its available to buy now.

[abbub]

I can only play PS1 games on the PSP or the Vita. They don't look terrible when they're 'compressed' to a screen that small. I'm *super* excited about the PS1-era Tony Hawk games getting a remaster for modern consoles.

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by sneckburger

Might not be as good as the retrotink but at least its available to buy now.

The Retro Tink's are indeed available, Video Game Perfection shop sell them from their Ireland facilities, best option if you (you, the potential buyer, not you sneckburger ) consider getting one from the EU, otherwise get one directly from Mike Chi web site. In fact, I just got mine today. I was mentioning a work in progress device, and that's the OSSC Pro, intended as a replacement to the aging OSSC (and as a framemeister killer, but I wouldn't bet on it personally).
Also, it's not a matter of the Pound cable and its substitutes being "as good as" or "not as good as" as the Retro Tink 2X (or the other way round). Unlike these custom HDMI cables, the Retro Tink 2X can be used with various consoles which warrant a higher price I guess. It does line doubling, plus it bears a couple of options : filtering, and (ass-ugly admittedly) scanlines if you're into these. It's been mentioned times and times again, if you want "best" for any pre-wii console, it ought to be CRT through RGB Scart anyway (or professional monitor aka PVM / BVM's through component BNC, though these devices are quite bulky and might require some fiddling to operate them properly).

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

This interlaced resolutions from e.g. the PS2 is nasty stuff.

Yeah, I am aware of that potential issue, basically, the PS2 can't do 240p in NTSC mode, only in PAL mode. Recently, I had the console emulating the Neo Geo to play Sengoku 2 at both speed on the CRT through the VGA box (a series of beat'em all games), @50Hz and @60Hz. Maybe I got bad eyes, but I didn't notice any glaring difference @60Hz, except for the speed increase of course. Anyway, compared to say the Gamecube, the homebrew scene is much more supportive of the PS2 late adopters (which I belong to). Anyone can pick up an unmodded one (even with the laser borked) and within a few days do crazy stuff like load NTSC ISOs located on a NAS or play DivX movies from a USB flash drive. On the other hand, the Gamecube user base seems to grow thinner and thinner each passing year, sadly.

[sneckburger]

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

The Retro Tink's are indeed available, Video Game Perfection shop sell them from their Ireland facilities, best option if you (you, the potential buyer, not you sneckburger ) consider getting one from the EU, otherwise get one directly from Mike Chi web site..

I've been playing tombraider with the right sprite cable and it's not ruined the experience but it does look very similar to the pound cable known for lag issues. Maybe racing games like ridge racer it might be more noticable, but for now it seems fine. If I find I'm using the ps1 enough I'll invest in the Rad2x or retrotink

[SquawkBox]

Originally Posted by sneckburger

it does look very similar to the pound cable known for lag issues.

Which brings us back to

Originally Posted by SquawkBox

Cheapest option would be the Pound Cable, not really recommended.

Originally Posted by sneckburger

I'll invest in the Rad2x or retrotink

The most convenient upscaler for the PS1 would be... the PS2 (the FAT one, fitted with PS1 discs reading capabilities). Through POPS and POPS loader frontend, there are quite a few PS1 games the console can emulate decently (author of popstarter is French, a nice chap btw), plus you may use your originals (with texture filtering) if you have any. In that perspective, that PS1 of yours could be harnessed for the remaining games (burned copies of games that POPS cannot emulate properly). About the Rad2X, let's face it : Mike Chi, a one-man company, cannot realistically get a good deal from struggling with such an established firm.

[SquawkBox]

Here are a few quick facts issued from my personal experience with the Retro Tink 2X Pro (RT2XPro) unit I ordered a few weeks ago from VGP, feel free to ask for more detailed results. I don't have that many 8/16-bit consoles laying around to test it with (unless an Amiga 500 could be confused with some beefed-up 16-bit console ), I'll see what I can do. Device's firmware was updated from v1.0 to v1.4, not too enthusiastic about power saving features for small scale production electronic devices but v1.4 firmware is supposed to add a feature which consists in turning it off by pressing input for 3 sec.. Line-doubled S-Video signal from the FAT PS1 looks surprisingly nice on the 26'' Sony Bravia LCD TV, I must say (so much for HD Retrovision Genesis / PS1 component cables offering!). No, really, Mike Chi did a good job considering how S-video usually looks on LCD TV's (somehow sloppy, unfocused, similar to composite, only marginally better).
Let's bring to light a specific LCD monitor, the HP LP2065. For one, the latter is 4:3. Not only that, it can be rotated and set into portrait mode, counter-clockwise-ly. Why does it matter ? See, PS1 port of DoDonPachi would be displayed upside down if one attempted to play it as intended (aka in tate mode) on any other LCD monitor bearing a portrait mode. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of such LCD's do pivot clockwise-ly and not the other way round, for some reason. This situation brought me to browse numerous online store pages in order to dig out a LCD which display would correspond to the 4:3 format (it is a well known fact that any 4:3 image stretched to 16:9, even to 16:10 produces a distorted image), and which bezel could pivot counter-clockwise-ly. Not an easy task, fortunately, the HP LP2065 fits the bill nicely. Apart from that, what we have here is a relatively no frills LCD monitor compared to, say, what Eizo, or even NEC had to offer, with only two inputs (dual DVI-I) at one's disposal, and a modest 20 inch screen.
I will be testing more PS1 shmups bearing a tate mode with this exact setup within the next weeks. A word about RT2XPro filtering abilities : Basically, some adjustment is made under the hood by the device, though it's up to the user to activate the comb filter (set it on "notch", or on automatic) and press filter button once for smooth effect, press again for scanlines. (again, feel free to check the manual, it is well written, and rather straightforward). Since the notch filter is targeted at NES owners apparently, I opted for that trigger set on automatic. Generated scanlines from the device are a bit too dark for my taste, maybe my eyes are fooling me, but it appears they look ugly or decent, depending upon circumstances. AFAIK, other than DoDonPachi, most polished PS1 smhups bearing a tate mode are : Raiden Project (arcade perfect ports of Raiden I & II), Raiden DX (guided purple lightning style lasergun ftw!) and Strikers 1945 II (think 1942 coin op' on steroids). The NTSC-U (US) versions of some of these games were deprived of a true tate mode, so I use NTSC-J (Japanese) version instead (a hack can be applied to bring back true Tate mode to NTSC-U Raiden Project / DX ISO, through the use of Gameshark or other similar cheating accessories).
With the right cables and equipment, I'd say S-Video output is not to be neglected for conveying old consoles and old machines signal, the RT2XPro deals with it beautifully, up to 480i / 576i. While we're at it, among the few downsides, the led indicators are too bright, almost Christmas decoration bright! I play all of these shmups bearing a tate mode on the FAT PS2 through POPS / POPStarter project with scanlines, thanks to the made in France scanline generator I bought from eBay (as discussed in some other thread), with the console component cable being plugged into my VGA box. I know, I know, square pixels, no glowing effect around edges of sprites... Nevertheless, bullet hell has never been so vivid! In all honesty, the RT2XPro doesn't seem to like too much LCD monitors, so I opted for using my FAT PS1 mostly with the Mitsubishi 22'' CRT. So, it goes like this (take a deep breath) : FAT PS1 (video output through S-Video cable) -> RT2XPro -> HDMI to component converter -> component video selector -> VGA box -> scanline generator -> 22'' Mitsubishi CRT, not for the faint of heart! And to play PS1 (or PS2) shmups in tate mode, like so : PS2 (video output through component cable) -> component video selector -> VGA box -> scanline generator -> VGA to HDMI convertor -> HDMI video selector -> HP LCD in portrait mode. So now, I can easily switch between the Gamecube, the PS2 and the PS1 at a press of a button, nice! Since I don't have an original component cable for the Gamecube, I can't play any of the supported games in progressive mode. PS2 ones I may though, and, icing on the retro cake, I have no input lag at all and no delay between resolution changes. Hopefully, this summary of mine which describes tinkering with various devices and monitors won't be resented as protracted.