Support Greaseweazle directly?

NLS · 04 July 2020, 16:59

Well the title says it all.

Would be great if WinUAE supported this very nice piece of hardware directly (i.e. mount actual floppies in a 3.5" floppy and see them in the emulator (and rip them also?)...

(and why not the other two flux tools I know too?)

What is needed to make this happen?
GW dev already said "why not"... Toni?

Mclane · 04 July 2020, 20:53

I'm pretty sure this has been asked a few times but Toni doesn't want driver work...

I may be wrong, I think there also may have been another reason he said no...Not sure..

Mikerochip · 05 July 2020, 00:54

That's .... not how that works.

You would have to ask for each track, one by one, and wait for the GW to dump it,
It would be particularly slow, and pretty complicated.
And you'd end up with hundreds of temporary tracks? assuming they weren't deleted at the end.

Or, start the emulator, dump the entire disk, and play.
Which means, start emu, wait 5 mins for disk to dump, and then star the emulation.

and it means a lot of wear and tear on the drives and disks.
Which are not getting any younger, or easier to replace if they die.

Much easier and better for everyone, to dump the file to .scp and use it digitally.

Any reason why you don't just make the .scp files yourself?
You will also then have preserved disks, and possibly help the community with the flux dumps.

Also, are most reads are per track, and writes? Rather than at the flux level, and rather than at the sector level, so, you'd need to convert sector and track writes to track dumps to flux streams for reading and (and the reverse) for writing.
(Maybe games are per sector reads/writes though?)

NLS · 05 July 2020, 02:00

Doesn't take 5 minutes to dump. Takes less than a minute.

I do make SCPs myself, but it would be a cool option to have and retain the retro feeling.

I understand it may have limitations but last time I asked Keir who makes GW, he didn't hit me with all the possible issues (not that I don't agree that probably there would be issues), but rather said "it is possible".
Maybe he didn't think it over thoroughly.

But it would be cool anyway.

Toni Wilen · 05 July 2020, 09:17

It is not impossible but useless. Transparent real time streaming simply isn't possible (it would be similar to running UAE on too slow PC) which is the only use case where it would make sense.

Mikerochip · 05 July 2020, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLS

Doesn't take 5 minutes to dump. Takes less than a minute

If it takes under a minute you're doing something drastically wrong.

Are you dumping at 5 revolutions? both sides, and 84 tracks?

If you're dumping at 1 revolution that's useless for protected disks.

I've just dumped 600+ floppies, using 3 different floppy drives, both PC and Amiga, and on each one it takes just about 4 minutes (3mins 56 seconds on this disk I just tried) to actually read the disk.

You can see my flux files here, as I upload them: https://archive.org/details/@mikerochip

NLS · 06 July 2020, 11:04

I am dumping 3 revolutions but 5 revolutions don't make a huge difference.
You probably don't have the lightning, that has much faster USB transfer.
I will time it for you tonight.
(I've only dumped around 100 from 800+ floppies yet, no time)

NLS · 06 July 2020, 20:29

You are correct. I don't know why I thought it was much faster.
3 revs takes around 2 seconds (maybe 2.5). So over 2 min.

Mikerochip · 06 July 2020, 22:06

3 revolutions, btw, is not acceptable for preservation of images, it needs to be a minimum of 5.
(Which, I presume, will push you to almost exactly 4 mins, the same as me)

It's ok, if your disks are perfect, but if not, 5 revolutions does make it easier to get a clean image.

I put together a few windows scripts, if you're a windows user, to make life a little easier.

https://github.com/M1kerochip/Launch...iveDirectories

And a front end, https://github.com/M1kerochip/LaunchGreaseWeazle to help with dumping multiple disks, and making multiple dumps, and then running the above scripts.

NLS · 06 July 2020, 23:24

Thanks.
Most of my disks until now are perfect.
For tougher disks indeed 5 revolutions (and some cleaning) usually helped.

Although one that I tried 6 revolutions went from 5 bad tracks to all red.

Mikerochip · 07 July 2020, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLS

Although one that I tried 6 revolutions went from 5 bad tracks to all red.

Try a different drive, and/or try dumping it another 10 times or so.

I've dumped one disk about 20 times until I got a good image.

The 5 revolutions, btw, isn't just for dirty disks.
It's for disks that have weak sectors and similar copy protection.
It helps to get a clear picture of what the sector reads as.

Wiking67 · 08 March 2021, 05:08

time to upgrade the gui

Caldor · 03 August 2021, 18:08

I believe this is supported now, with a custom version of WinUAE, right?

solarmon · 03 August 2021, 19:50

Yes, the support is in a beta preview version - see for more details:

https://amiga.robsmithdev.co.uk/

There is a Discord channel where you can get more support.

dlfrsilver · 04 August 2021, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLS

Thanks.
Most of my disks until now are perfect.
For tougher disks indeed 5 revolutions (and some cleaning) usually helped.

Although one that I tried 6 revolutions went from 5 bad tracks to all red.

5 revs is the default for preservation dumps. 3 revs is not enough.

Toni Wilen · 12 August 2021, 13:05

Now that WinUAE chipset updates are finally mostly done and https://github.com/RobSmithDev/FloppyDriveBridge proves that on the fly floppy access can work (even if it needs some extra hacks to bypass usual problems), I'll plan to merge the support to official WinUAE tree soon. Most likely all the logic will be in separate dll (like caps library works) because it is still work in progress.

So... I need the hardware. Greaseweazle looks more flexible option than "official" board (which FloppyDriveBridge author offered).

Does anyone here have best and latest ready-made (I am not going to bother with building one myself, too lazy..) GW boards for sale inside EU?

dlfrsilver · 12 August 2021, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Now that WinUAE chipset updates are finally mostly done and https://github.com/RobSmithDev/FloppyDriveBridge proves that on the fly floppy access can work (even if it needs some extra hacks to bypass usual problems), I'll plan to merge the support to official WinUAE tree soon. Most likely all the logic will be in separate dll (like caps library works) because it is still work in progress.

So... I need the hardware. Greaseweazle looks more flexible option than "official" board (which FloppyDriveBridge author offered).

Does anyone here have best and latest ready-made (I am not going to bother with building one myself, too lazy..) GW boards for sale inside EU?

Contact Keir Fraser Toni. I'm sure he can sold or send one to you

solarmon · 12 August 2021, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Now that WinUAE chipset updates are finally mostly done and https://github.com/RobSmithDev/FloppyDriveBridge proves that on the fly floppy access can work (even if it needs some extra hacks to bypass usual problems), I'll plan to merge the support to official WinUAE tree soon. Most likely all the logic will be in separate dll (like caps library works) because it is still work in progress.

So... I need the hardware. Greaseweazle looks more flexible option than "official" board (which FloppyDriveBridge author offered).

Does anyone here have best and latest ready-made (I am not going to bother with building one myself, too lazy..) GW boards for sale inside EU?

I can donate you a Greaseweazle F1 Plus board, which is a separate custom board from the main ones, but fully supported, and works with Rob Smiths WinUAE preview release.

See https://github.com/solarmon/Greaseweazle

PM me if you are interested.

NLS · 12 August 2021, 19:43

Well it great that we have progress and Toni embraced it.

Every improvement is cool, I don't find any improvement useless - someone somewhere will find it useful.

Toni Wilen · 01 September 2021, 21:59

GW F1 Plus arrived today, thanks solarmon!

04 July 2020, 16:59	#1
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 757	Support Greaseweazle directly? Well the title says it all. Would be great if WinUAE supported this very nice piece of hardware directly (i.e. mount actual floppies in a 3.5" floppy and see them in the emulator (and rip them also?)... (and why not the other two flux tools I know too?) What is needed to make this happen? GW dev already said "why not"... Toni?

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04 July 2020, 20:53	#2
Mclane Old retro god. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Northolt, West London Age: 62 Posts: 857	I'm pretty sure this has been asked a few times but Toni doesn't want driver work... I may be wrong, I think there also may have been another reason he said no...Not sure..

05 July 2020, 00:54	#3
Mikerochip Registered User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ireland Posts: 304	That's .... not how that works. You would have to ask for each track, one by one, and wait for the GW to dump it, It would be particularly slow, and pretty complicated. And you'd end up with hundreds of temporary tracks? assuming they weren't deleted at the end. Or, start the emulator, dump the entire disk, and play. Which means, start emu, wait 5 mins for disk to dump, and then star the emulation. and it means a lot of wear and tear on the drives and disks. Which are not getting any younger, or easier to replace if they die. Much easier and better for everyone, to dump the file to .scp and use it digitally. Any reason why you don't just make the .scp files yourself? You will also then have preserved disks, and possibly help the community with the flux dumps. Also, are most reads are per track, and writes? Rather than at the flux level, and rather than at the sector level, so, you'd need to convert sector and track writes to track dumps to flux streams for reading and (and the reverse) for writing. (Maybe games are per sector reads/writes though?)

05 July 2020, 02:00	#4
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 757	Doesn't take 5 minutes to dump. Takes less than a minute. I do make SCPs myself, but it would be a cool option to have and retain the retro feeling. I understand it may have limitations but last time I asked Keir who makes GW, he didn't hit me with all the possible issues (not that I don't agree that probably there would be issues), but rather said "it is possible". Maybe he didn't think it over thoroughly. But it would be cool anyway.

05 July 2020, 09:17	#5
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	It is not impossible but useless. Transparent real time streaming simply isn't possible (it would be similar to running UAE on too slow PC) which is the only use case where it would make sense.

06 July 2020, 11:04	#7
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 757	I am dumping 3 revolutions but 5 revolutions don't make a huge difference. You probably don't have the lightning, that has much faster USB transfer. I will time it for you tonight. (I've only dumped around 100 from 800+ floppies yet, no time)

06 July 2020, 20:29	#8
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 757	You are correct. I don't know why I thought it was much faster. 3 revs takes around 2 seconds (maybe 2.5). So over 2 min.

06 July 2020, 22:06	#9
Mikerochip Registered User Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ireland Posts: 304	3 revolutions, btw, is not acceptable for preservation of images, it needs to be a minimum of 5. (Which, I presume, will push you to almost exactly 4 mins, the same as me) It's ok, if your disks are perfect, but if not, 5 revolutions does make it easier to get a clean image. I put together a few windows scripts, if you're a windows user, to make life a little easier. https://github.com/M1kerochip/Launch...iveDirectories And a front end, https://github.com/M1kerochip/LaunchGreaseWeazle to help with dumping multiple disks, and making multiple dumps, and then running the above scripts.

06 July 2020, 23:24	#10
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 757	Thanks. Most of my disks until now are perfect. For tougher disks indeed 5 revolutions (and some cleaning) usually helped. Although one that I tried 6 revolutions went from 5 bad tracks to all red.

08 March 2021, 05:08	#12
Wiking67 Blowing Out The Flame Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lulea Sweden Age: 57 Posts: 214	time to upgrade the gui

03 August 2021, 18:08	#13
Caldor Registered User Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Aalborg Posts: 20	I believe this is supported now, with a custom version of WinUAE, right?

03 August 2021, 19:50	#14
solarmon Registered User Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: UK Posts: 1,715	Yes, the support is in a beta preview version - see for more details: https://amiga.robsmithdev.co.uk/ There is a Discord channel where you can get more support.

12 August 2021, 13:05	#16
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	Now that WinUAE chipset updates are finally mostly done and https://github.com/RobSmithDev/FloppyDriveBridge proves that on the fly floppy access can work (even if it needs some extra hacks to bypass usual problems), I'll plan to merge the support to official WinUAE tree soon. Most likely all the logic will be in separate dll (like caps library works) because it is still work in progress. So... I need the hardware. Greaseweazle looks more flexible option than "official" board (which FloppyDriveBridge author offered). Does anyone here have best and latest ready-made (I am not going to bother with building one myself, too lazy..) GW boards for sale inside EU?

12 August 2021, 19:43	#19
NLS Ancient User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: GREECE Age: 50 Posts: 757	Well it great that we have progress and Toni embraced it. Every improvement is cool, I don't find any improvement useless - someone somewhere will find it useful.

01 September 2021, 21:59	#20
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	GW F1 Plus arrived today, thanks solarmon!

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