Scan lines on an LCD?

[jbenam]

The truth is that games were not designed to be played with PVMs - they knew most players used crappy consumer TVs in composite and designed them accordingly.

The entire “PVM-is-the-ultimate-CRT” is another modern fabrication (probably stemmed from sellers that needed to justify the high prices) that has no root in authenticity and what it really was like to play “back in the day”.

[Mixel]

^ At least things weren’t that blurry with SCART. Composite was always pretty horrible.. Any option not to use it should’ve been taken where possible.

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The whining is pretty subjective. Most people can’t hear it, kids are much more sensitive to it too. Don’t think I ever owned a non-whining crt whether it be a tv or monitor. And the refresh is really visible in my peripheral vision too, I don’t really miss them.

[Thorham]

Don't care for scanlines Give me that pixelated goodness

[Retro-Nerd]

Originally Posted by jbenam

The truth is that games were not designed to be played with PVMs - they knew most players used crappy consumer TVs in composite and designed them accordingly.

The entire “PVM-is-the-ultimate-CRT” is another modern fabrication (probably stemmed from sellers that needed to justify the high prices) that has no root in authenticity and what it really was like to play “back in the day”.

I don't like studio monitors like the PVM. But the last image is antenna. Never used this connection after 1988. RGB scart ftw. That shows my images above anyway.

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Don't care for scanlines Give me that pixelated goodness

Pixelated badness, sometimes.. there are so many examples of where it looks objectively better and “as intended” on CRT.. https://twitter.com/CRTpixels have hundreds of examples.. Out old graphics were made for those displays, something like SOTB or DOTC - the colour blending just doesn’t work as well with pure pixel output.

That’s not just the scanlines though. Just adding scanlines isn’t really getting a LCD closer to looking like a CRT, it just looks like a LCD with scanlines.. (which aren’t even the top most significant differentiating factor in crts really)

[Retro-Nerd]

Real A1200 on a Sony Trintron CRT TV. Scart RGB.







C64, same TV in S-Video:

[Damion]

>The entire “PVM-is-the-ultimate-CRT” is another modern fabrication (probably stemmed from sellers that needed to justify the high prices) that has no root in authenticity and what it really was like to play “back in the day”.

I realize the above is slightly tongue in cheek, and I can certainly understand that some might enjoy the nolstalgia factor of "period" CRTs. As for me, to hell with authenticity. Like most of us, I started out on RF before moving to separated chroma/luma (a nice improvement) and then RGB. I was disappointed with display technology growing up, so for someone who appreciates the high points of CRTs while wanting to mitigate some of the typical CRT deficits (and avoid entirely the severe deficits of LCD for retro gaming), a good PVM can indeed be the holy grail, or near enough.

They have their faults, and even a PVM will be truly dreadful if worn out/in need of service or maladjusted. I also agree that the prices folks need to pay for beat-up units is unfortunate. I lucked out and bought a few back when you could get them new for $150 (with free shipping, even! ).

[Cobe]

I'll always enjoy crt even over rf on consumer tv from 90s more than lcds...
I still wait that someone make some good crt shader on rpi that can be put between real amiga/c64 and lcd. But I doubt that'll ever be near as good as crt. Some leap in tv technology is needed. LCDs are just horibble...

[Retro-Nerd]

OLEDs are great in nearly all asprects for that, and for general gaming. The shaders are advanced enough. I haven't used my CRT tv for 2 years now. That says it all. It's still there, but now i will probably use it for Tate mode games only via MiSTer.

[NorthWay]

One thing you're not seeing in static(non-moving) snaps is the afterglow you get on CRTs.
Scrolling games, or moving objects, can leave behind a trail that is typical for CRTs. Typical example is Delta on the C= 64 with a 1701- turn off the lights in the room to see it more clearly.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Mixel

Pixelated badness, sometimes.. there are so many examples of where it looks objectively better and “as intended” on CRT..

How good or bad something looks is subjective, and 'as intended' may or may not be relevant based on taste

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by Thorham

How good or bad something looks is subjective, and 'as intended' may or may not be relevant based on taste

I did say sometimes.

https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status...481918466?s=20

If the artists specifically target tech using techniques that are literally destroyed by the tech that comes after, it is kind of breaking their work to use pure pixels. Loads of examples of this with dithering, where alternate vertical lines become a single block of colour in their intended environment but become zebra stripes in pure pixels.

Many cases of detail lost by removing the inherent smoothing properties of the target displays. It’s pretty surreal how much depth can be lost without the subtleties.

[acidbottle]

Interesting debate, even if it is regurgitated over and over through the years!

The smoothing effect that a TV has on old games, especially Amiga era is and will forever be my choice. It is particularly preferred even when playing early consoles such as PS1. It's like all things retro though, its what you remember and enjoyed at the time that fills your mind with nostalgia.

A mate had a PC and of course a nice crisp looking CRT monitor, I didn't like it one bit, even if the gfx were more colourful and detailed.

I like all original hardware of course, but some emulators out there do provide plenty of options to get that RF style smudging onto your modern displays, some of them do it really really well.

As for scanlines, I sometimes like them but depends on the game, certainly not big chunky ones anyway.

Clean pixels on a modern display, not for me most of the time, but to each their own

[rare_j]

I remember trading up from a crappy TV and RF cable to a Microvitec 1438.
Have preferred a nice crispy set of pixels ever since.
You composite lovers can keep your dot-crawl!

[Retro-Nerd]

I can understand why people still want to see composite video capable effects, e.g for fake transparency (Sonic waterfall). But simulating an awful RF antenna connection? That's beyond me.

[Pyromania]

What's the best Sony OLED for Amiga stuff?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Mixel

I did say sometimes.

https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status...481918466?s=20

Wow, I can't believe how bad that fake transparency is I stand corrected

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

I can understand why people still want to see composite video capable effects, e.g for fake transparency (Sonic waterfall). But simulating an awful RF antenna connection? That's beyond me.

Nostalgia is a drug.

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Wow, I can't believe how bad that fake transparency is I stand corrected

Sometimes. It’s even more pronounced in sonic’s waterfalls, Aladdin’s background sand dunes etc.. But dithering should be effective for creating intermediate shades if the artists were relying on it. Making their art not work doesn’t seem like making the graphics better. Obviously everyone prefers what they like but in some cases pixel blend made things effectively “higher resolution” than you get when you just have the pure pixels.

https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status...214616587?s=20 - but scaled up to entire games.. SOTN isn’t supposed to look all chunky. A lot of games clearly weren’t. Things like EOTB and Wing Commander that were really targeting crisp VGA it’s a different story.

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I’d not want to simulate a rf antenna either though. For me it’s about getting a good yet era appropriate picture not a bad era appropriate picture.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by rare_j

I remember trading up from a crappy TV and RF cable to a Microvitec 1438.
Have preferred a nice crispy set of pixels ever since.
You composite lovers can keep your dot-crawl!

I feel pretty much the same. Had my C64 hooked up to a TV, but got a 1084 with my Amiga and I guess that makes the gap between my BITD expierence and playing on emulation somewhat less.

Some interesting filters in this thread though. Quite a difference to the 'every 2nd line black' scanlines