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Old 14 January 2021, 15:42   #101
YouKnowWho
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Originally Posted by EAUniW View Post
Which leads to the question we've all been arguing over for 25 years.

At what point does an Amiga stop being an Amiga? Once you rip out the legacy era software and hardware, you've got a PC with an OS that kinda looks like Workbench but isn't.
I think this is a simple black and white question EAUniW. I think we all know and accept that an Amiga is what was made by Commodore, and carried on with same hardware by AT/Escom. After that it got bastardized and it stopped being Amiga.

Personally I don't even subscribe to post 3.1 OS releases - although 3.1.4 deserves exception.

Pure Amiga Hardware as we know it is the only real Amiga.
Next best thing is FPGA - this is not an Amiga anymore but a simulation of one.
Then Software, again not an Amiga but an emulation of one.

Since the last 1200s and 4000s were made, there have been no new Amiga computers. iComp will release that RELOADED, and THAT in my view will be the only new real Amiga since those AT/Escom machines stopped being made because it uses the real chipset. I'm waiting for that 1200 RELOADED with money in hand - because it is yet another lovely Amiga project that deserves total support from the community.

1200 RELOADED - that's right Chucky - another "hobbyproject" that doesn't hermit away due to sensitive feelings! I know I'm trolling here, but I feel examples of how "hobbyprojects" for the community should be done is worth pointing out. And for those of us who can't do them, we need to support them financially to make them viable, reward the work, keep new stuff coming!
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Old 14 January 2021, 16:08   #102
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3.1.4 is allowed as it can work on legacy really well. Everything else needs serious megahertz. Which isn't a bad thing but there's megahertzing and then there's megahertzing and an RTG card and a CF card and before you know it, your Amiga looks like the inside of a Borg cube.
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Old 14 January 2021, 16:20   #103
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eh I might be the reason the reloaded will not happen.. as I as a hobbyproject did a open solution of a A1200 replacementpcb..
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Old 14 January 2021, 16:23   #104
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eh I might be the reason the reloaded will not happen.. as I as a hobbyproject did a open solution of a A1200 replacementpcb..
Go buy an Atari ST and begone.
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Old 14 January 2021, 16:59   #105
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eh I might be the reason the reloaded will not happen.. as I as a hobbyproject did a open solution of a A1200 replacementpcb..
You wish! Fortunately, iComp isn't sensitive to "diskheads" and will deliver this project, without knowing details I have high confidence based on their history of doing so.

ReAmiga was cute, but just a reverse engineering for uber-geeks to replace the mobo - irrelevant for the Amiga majority.

iComp with the A1200 RELOADED is doing a whole new board with lovely things on it, not just copy of a board. Plus...and this is important, he has Alice chips and therefore, iCOmp can reach wonderland.. Nude boards are...nude and useless.

Fortunately, you "might" have absolutely zero say on this matter.

If you're contributing - good on you. We'll support it.
If you're trying to put spokes in the wheels - I have enough confidence in iComp to make you completely irrelevant to their ability to deliver the product, just like they delivered the 64 RELOADED.

They aren't flakes over there at iComp!

I bet you it will land around 30th anniversary of A1200 release. That's less than 2 years away.
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Old 14 January 2021, 17:01   #106
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Jesus, 30 years since the 1200, talk about making us all feel old.
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Old 14 January 2021, 17:01   #107
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no I do not WISH. on the opposite.. but I guess as marked dropped due to this. and he start to sell chipset instead. (I am surprised people started to build NOS machines actually. didn't think that was something people wanted to do. it was most to replace bad pcbs)

HOWEVER. wrong topic for this thread.
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Old 14 January 2021, 17:21   #108
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no I do not WISH. on the opposite.. but I guess as marked dropped due to this. and he start to sell chipset instead. (I am surprised people started to build NOS machines actually. didn't think that was something people wanted to do. it was most to replace bad pcbs)

HOWEVER. wrong topic for this thread.
Just the prospect of a REAL Amiga with custom chips is exciting. Add RTG, flickerfixer, Ethernet, USB - the whole thing reads like an Amiga wet dream. ReAmiga has a place, and preserving the systems with bad boards is defiantly a noble act. I fear the process of transferring the chips is too much for most. Guy was selling a ReAmiga for $200 few weeks back without Alice onboard (heartless) - It was nice looking - red. But first thought I had was...what about the build quality? Something that will certainly be addressed with A1200 RELOADED.

Only iComp is able to do it. I'm SOOOO ready BABY!
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Old 14 January 2021, 17:43   #109
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Talk is cheap, until it happens.

So less talk, more happening, I'll buy one.
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Old 14 January 2021, 17:46   #110
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...and before you know it, your Amiga looks like the inside of a Borg cube.
Ain't that the truth! That's why the 1200 is such a lovely clean machine. But even those can get out of hand. RELOADED will clean it all up beautifully.

At a few points I considered getting a towered 1200. They tend to be cleaner, but again - more boxes, more stuff. The 1200 is just such a nice all-in-one! Imagine a PC mobo made to fit a 1200? :-)

I got one of the transparent A1200 cases that I'll use with a black power supply, found some weird Datalux transparent mouse to match that. I'll remove the logo from the mouse, clean up and put a black wire on as well, and...

...I found out that TVs for maximum security prisons need to be...TRANSPARENT! So I got this Clear Tunes CT-1582S TV, has VGA and HDMI in, 15" - it will be a killer top-to-bottom Transparent Amiga setup here! TV has stereo speakers built-in and everything - it's absolutely awesome. Will be clean and clear!

I just hope this monitor wasn't witness to some prison "lovemaking"! The one I grabbed didn't look to have any CORRECTIONS or JAIL labeling or etching visible in the photos - so perhaps it was never in lock-up.
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Old 14 January 2021, 17:53   #111
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Talk is cheap, until it happens.

So less talk, more happening, I'll buy one.
iComp is clear and communicative about it. They posted update that they got the DB23 connectors sourced - which was a challenged in this day and age.

Proper project. Clear. Communicated. Forum. Details. Expectations set and will be delivered to. Lovely, and example of how things should be done.
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Old 14 January 2021, 18:00   #112
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The 1200 really is a nice case, a AAA 1800 or 2400 all-in-one would've been very interesting to see.

An 850 case would be good, 1200 design at the size of the 500.
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Old 14 January 2021, 20:28   #113
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And you seriously think there weren't similar problems on the DOS-side of things?
Of course, much more serious problems, which is exactly the reason why MS ditched it. AmigaOs was never ditched by CBM, CBM died before that happened, though it was only a matter of time when that happend. Either of the two.


Nowadays, you can ditch AmigaOs and replace it by something reasonable. Then, while ditching, also replace the outdated chipset. And while at it, the incompatible 68K ISA as it was a dead end.



Voila, you get your PC, or your smartphone, or your linux box, depending on your preference.


You cannot revert history, that's the point. Amiga is a historical artefact, with all its problems. If you try to replace it with something "modern" - well, why don't you just make it modern all the way?


The modern "toy system" or "home computer" is something like a raspi, or your smartphone, or... depending on preference.
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Old 14 January 2021, 21:12   #114
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The modern "toy system" or "home computer" is something like a raspi, or your smartphone, or... depending on preference.
DE10 NANO is the one I think, because it is simulation not emulation - of many cores. It's super fun.

People get purpose hardware like an Amiga because it is authentic. What you say is without doubt the way it is. But having an old piece of hardware like Amiga 1200 for example is time travel 3 decades back - to the way it was. With many inconveniences ironed out - as many of us have it with CF and more RAM in the very least. Although I have days where flipping a few floppies in and out is just what the doctor ordered!
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Old 15 January 2021, 10:19   #115
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Of course, much more serious problems, which is exactly the reason why MS ditched it. AmigaOs was never ditched by CBM, CBM died before that happened, though it was only a matter of time when that happend. Either of the two.
I was referring to what could have happened in the past, not to what could or should happen today. MSDOS/8086 surely had a much more difficult path towards the modern computers we now use than the Amiga would have had (from a technical point of view). The MSDOS/8086 system had infinitely more economical power and thus made it. However, from a technical point of view the Amiga *could* have evolved into the multi-core GPU power house mentioned before.
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Old 15 January 2021, 12:53   #116
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I was referring to what could have happened in the past, not to what could or should happen today. MSDOS/8086 surely had a much more difficult path towards the modern computers we now use than the Amiga would have had (from a technical point of view). The MSDOS/8086 system had infinitely more economical power and thus made it. However, from a technical point of view the Amiga *could* have evolved into the multi-core GPU power house mentioned before.
from Aros there is a 64bit version with multicore support. Only memory protection is not there but that certainly could be added if you drop legacy support. But who use it? And also no developers (or to be precise few). As Thomas said you can modernize amigaos but how much software is left? Old amiga software will not run, 68k perhaps in emulation. It really not makes much sense. Amiga is a retro hobby plaform, not more but also not less.

When Commodore lived that would be different, there still were lots of developers and even companies who would have written new software or adapted existing software. Today we only have what we have basically. Most developers long left and noone would develop new software for it.
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Old 15 January 2021, 13:37   #117
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Just the prospect of a REAL Amiga with custom chips is exciting. Add RTG, flickerfixer, Ethernet, USB - [B]the whole thing reads like an Amiga wet dream.
I already have a few Amigas like this standing around, so I don't understand the excitement, you don't need a Reloaded board for that. If the Reloaded comes, it will be a combination of existing iComp hardware, with a few small, additional features. But the features won't be earth-shattering. When I think of the problems with the first C64 Reloaded, or the Indivision software/product maintenance my expectations are on a very neutral level.

In the meantime, other companies and hobby developers have overtaken icomp.It will become increasingly difficult to sell products in this price range.
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Old 15 January 2021, 13:50   #118
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I already have a few Amigas like this standing around, so I don't understand the excitement, you don't need a Reloaded board for that. If the Reloaded comes, it will be a combination of existing iComp hardware, with a few small, additional features. But the features won't be earth-shattering. When I think of the problems with the first C64 Reloaded, or the Indivision software/product maintenance my expectations are on a very neutral level.

In the meantime, other companies and hobby developers have overtaken icomp.It will become increasingly difficult to sell products in this price range.
I doubt that the board will ever be sold... the developer behind icomp does it for earning money. Years ago he had a kind of monopoly on hardware extensions for classic amigas but that has changed. Now with competition the potential market is certainly much smaller and the chance to get high prices for it is much smaller. That is the main reason.
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Old 15 January 2021, 15:11   #119
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I already have a few Amigas like this standing around, so I don't understand the excitement, you don't need a Reloaded board for that.

Well, I'm not sure whether I'm excited or not... I believe the real advantage is that you get a machine that is (hopefully) solid and stable, and in a good technical condition, with warantee on it. That doesn't hold for all the old machines that are still out.



I do have a working A2000, though it is a bit flakey, and its caps would need to be changed, but I'm personally not inclined in doing it myself (I would just ruin the board). Of course, I could just ask someone from the community to do it - but if its broken afterwards, it's my own risk.
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Old 15 January 2021, 18:28   #120
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DE10 NANO is the one I think, because it is simulation not emulation - of many cores. It's super fun. (...)
It is emulation, even more of emulation than PC AT emulation on Amiga using things like A2088/2286 - where application itself run on physical, original x86 chip. You live in misconception emulation = software like UAE. It's not the only emulation around. You can have hardware emulator and MiSTer is such. And part of AGA on Vampire is as well.


Quote:
Add RTG, flickerfixer, Ethernet, USB - [B]the whole thing reads like an Amiga wet dream
Oh my, really, decent ethernet speed and good usb support a wet dream? Right. RTG is roughly 30 years old now and where exactly do we stand atm? The fastest card supporting Warp3D is basically Voodoo 3 3500 or VooDoo 4 4500. And most of the 3D games using warp3d which you'll run are PC ports anyway. With 2D capabilities of Warp, ZZ, Vampire there isn't all that much use either. It can display fhd on lcd and that's basically it. Few games and workbench screen - there's nothing more. Most of nostalgic games are the ones running on chipset itself which doesn't concern RTG much but has constraint of 2MB available memory (chipram) and also in case of anything that actually use physical amiga chipset (zz, warp) you need scandoubler to send it through hdmi. Yes, yes, there's already fairly inexpensive and fast scaler for A500 based on RPi Zero, that's great. Other than that, if you want integrated solution switching between PAL and RTG - well you've no luck, it's all either pretty expensive solutions or straight up chipset emulation on Vampire (which is also expensive piece of hardware).
You can invest in scart to hdmi converters but those aren't reliable, there are few really working well, you won't have auto switch hdmi sources and there's high input lag making it less appealing.
So 2021 essentials for real amiga owner is hdmi out, scsi.device/ide.device compatible sd/cf/sata controller, usb mouse, joystick, sometimes keyboard (hid, so shouldn't be a problem) and after that rtg, network capabilities, usb mass storage and super ultra hyper CPU core in descending order of importance.
And if I was making a guess what's more promising in the long run I'd say FPGA SoC with ARM cores which could offload operations on things like jpeg, mp3 decoding, mpeg2 video decoding, Warp3D accel (in form of rewritten wazp3d). ZZ has 2 Cortex A9 inside, MiSTer has those as well. Not really used atm. Warp has Cortex M7 which has limited use. Vampire tries to handle everything alone.

Last edited by Promilus; 15 January 2021 at 18:37.
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