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Old 11 November 2021, 11:47   #41
utri007
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so we should all get rid of our Apollos then?
Why? What kind of question is that? It is still faster than 66mhz Blizzard.
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Old 11 November 2021, 11:56   #42
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Do you have a timestamp for this glitch?
Maybe it's an artifact of the video compression or something. Outside of the earthquake you can already see it at the 47 second mark, the theater front entrance wall flashes white a couple of times. This happens inside too at the 1:15 mark (which is the earthquake).
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Old 11 November 2021, 12:02   #43
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Why? What kind of question is that? It is still faster than 66mhz Blizzard.
I was joking.

So it's not as efficient with the memory is what you are telling us hence the Blizzard being nearly as fast at a much lower clock speed.
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Old 11 November 2021, 13:19   #44
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Maybe it's an artifact of the video compression or something. Outside of the earthquake you can already see it at the 47 second mark, the theater front entrance wall flashes white a couple of times. This happens inside too at the 1:15 mark (which is the earthquake).
Ah, those are flickering light effects in the game itself. If you shoot out the light sources you will get these flickers. They can also be placed in the map editor.

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I was joking.

So it's not as efficient with the memory is what you are telling us hence the Blizzard being nearly as fast at a much lower clock speed.
These column drawing games do a lot of non-cached memory accesses, so the memory speed has a big impact on the performance.
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Old 11 November 2021, 14:18   #45
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Ah, those are flickering light effects in the game itself. If you shoot out the light sources you will get these flickers. They can also be placed in the map editor.


These column drawing games do a lot of non-cached memory accesses, so the memory speed has a big impact on the performance.
So had the Apollo faster memory it would be an all round improvement for that accelerator?
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Old 11 November 2021, 14:45   #46
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So had the Apollo faster memory it would be an all round improvement for that accelerator?
OT: Apollos are tricky and glitchy. I just upgraded an Apollo 4040 to 4060 and it barely runs at 48 MHz (both CPU and RAM) or at about 75 Mhz for the CPU and
a miserable 37.5 MHz for the RAM. This is because newer cards had newer Mach chips and a refined logic. Mine is an old one with Mach 130 chips.

However, RAM access for 48 MHz is on par with CS MK2 at 66 MHz, so the RAM controller has better performance than the Phase5 cards...
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Old 11 November 2021, 18:23   #47
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So had the Apollo faster memory it would be an all round improvement for that accelerator?
For memory intensive tasks yes, but there's a practical limit, since you can't increase the the memory clock speed without also overclocking the CPU.
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Old 11 November 2021, 22:44   #48
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OT: Apollos are tricky and glitchy. I just upgraded an Apollo 4040 to 4060 and it barely runs at 48 MHz (both CPU and RAM) or at about 75 Mhz for the CPU and
a miserable 37.5 MHz for the RAM. This is because newer cards had newer Mach chips and a refined logic. Mine is an old one with Mach 130 chips.

However, RAM access for 48 MHz is on par with CS MK2 at 66 MHz, so the RAM controller has better performance than the Phase5 cards...
Well I suppose I am grateful mine is nice and stable and does what it does reasonably well, but obviously if it hadn't got that draw back with the memory speed it would be better. Not sure what my mac MACH chip is.

Would love to try and over clock it to 100mhz, I know it's possible with REV 6 060s which mine is. However probably would see to much improvement with any of those FPS games.
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Old 11 November 2021, 23:56   #49
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Well I suppose I am grateful mine is nice and stable and does what it does reasonably well, but obviously if it hadn't got that draw back with the memory speed it would be better. Not sure what my mac MACH chip is.



Would love to try and over clock it to 100mhz, I know it's possible with REV 6 060s which mine is. However probably would see to much improvement with any of those FPS games.
I think you got me wrong.

Let's reiterate:

If an Apollo is running at 80 MHz, RAM clock will be half of it, which is 40 MHz. This is because for that kind of speed, you have to apply a hack, tricking the card into 68040 mode (where the clock is always halved), while actually running it with a 68060.

If you apply the same hack on a Cyberstorm MK2, you will be able (given a permittive CPU) to run it at 100 MHz, with RAM clock halved to 50 MHz.

The thing is: In this scenario, the RAM access on the Apollo will be FASTER than on the Cyberstorm, because it's implemented more efficiently.

However, not all Apollos are able to run a 68060 at 80 (or even more) MHz, because the MACH130 chips used on the older boards can't cope with that kind of speed. My card maxes out at about 75 MHz, going higher makes it unstable.

Also, the SCSI controller is crap, but cannot be switched off completely, and the RAM controller producing non-consecutive memory segments is also far from ideal.

And the worst thing: All the data for the cards is still there, the owner being Jens Schönfeld. But he stated on more than one occasion that he thinks, that only dead Apollos are good Apollos...

So, if your Apollo can do 80 MHz, be happy and take good care of it... ;-)

So, getting back to the original topic, an Apollo should perform very nicely for this kind of game... If your's doesn't, maybe there's room for optimization using another 68060.library, or perhaps even another set of RAM modules.
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Old 15 November 2021, 19:50   #50
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I think you got me wrong.

Let's reiterate:

If an Apollo is running at 80 MHz, RAM clock will be half of it, which is 40 MHz. This is because for that kind of speed, you have to apply a hack, tricking the card into 68040 mode (where the clock is always halved), while actually running it with a 68060.

If you apply the same hack on a Cyberstorm MK2, you will be able (given a permittive CPU) to run it at 100 MHz, with RAM clock halved to 50 MHz.

The thing is: In this scenario, the RAM access on the Apollo will be FASTER than on the Cyberstorm, because it's implemented more efficiently.

However, not all Apollos are able to run a 68060 at 80 (or even more) MHz, because the MACH130 chips used on the older boards can't cope with that kind of speed. My card maxes out at about 75 MHz, going higher makes it unstable.

Also, the SCSI controller is crap, but cannot be switched off completely, and the RAM controller producing non-consecutive memory segments is also far from ideal.

And the worst thing: All the data for the cards is still there, the owner being Jens Schönfeld. But he stated on more than one occasion that he thinks, that only dead Apollos are good Apollos...

So, if your Apollo can do 80 MHz, be happy and take good care of it... ;-)

So, getting back to the original topic, an Apollo should perform very nicely for this kind of game... If your's doesn't, maybe there's room for optimization using another 68060.library, or perhaps even another set of RAM modules.
Jens owns details about Apollo Accelerators? That's pretty random. Shame he prefers them dead as well.

Anyways my card is optimized as best as it can be I think. Went through that whole process a year ago. Get about 60184 drystones (44 something mflops) in SYSINFO. Not sure about my ram modules now, haven't really looked at those.

I use Apollo library as it seems to get better speed than the MMULib version.

Now got a FastATA working also. Think it Blood is loading quicker, I dunno, it's the only thing I've really played since I got it all operational again.
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Old 16 November 2021, 00:14   #51
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I didn't put a lot of effort into this, but Duke3D's source is pretty much unreadable, so unless I find something obvious it won't likely change a lot. The game code will always be slower than SW for example because of the CON scripts.


Yes I can agree, same with the original Descent and lots of other 90's DOS games. They were written to 'work' and be fast for the target hardware without any consideration given to readability or code maintenance.

I tore out a lot of hair with those ports

I think Quake was probably the first port I worked on that was actually written nicely.


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Anyways my card is optimized as best as it can be I think. Went through that whole process a year ago. Get about 60184 drystones (44 something mflops) in SYSINFO. Not sure about my ram modules now, haven't really looked at those.
Compare your Apollo setup with mine and see if it's fully optimized...

http://aminet.net/package/util/moni/...1260_80Mhz_AGA


Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidgerry;
Regarding FASTATA..
I found it to be a pain in the bottom and gave up with it.

Are you running PFS3 060 version? If not, you should be.

Last edited by NovaCoder; 16 November 2021 at 00:22.
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Old 16 November 2021, 12:52   #52
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Compare your Apollo setup with mine and see if it's fully optimized...

http://aminet.net/package/util/moni/...1260_80Mhz_AGA


I found it to be a pain in the bottom and gave up with it.

Are you running PFS3 060 version? If not, you should be.

I think I did compare to yours a year ago ? as you helped in the thread I started for that. But I'll check again for a laugh.


FastATA was a pain but thankfully only lasted a couple of days before I got it running.



PFS3 O60? Never knew it existed. All my builds are done using PFS3-AIO. Would this improve things even more so? Or would it be minimal difference?
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Old 16 November 2021, 13:41   #53
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Yes I can agree, same with the original Descent and lots of other 90's DOS games. They were written to 'work' and be fast for the target hardware without any consideration given to readability or code maintenance.

I tore out a lot of hair with those ports

I think Quake was probably the first port I worked on that was actually written nicely.
Yes, John Carmack wrote pretty neatly structured code even in his earlier games. From 3D Realms Shadow Warrior wasn't bad either, it was worked on by a different team.
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Old 16 November 2021, 15:50   #54
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Well I never could see the Matrix in Carmack code. I've only started to understand some things about the Doom source because Decino (Youtube) makes a point out of explaining things in the game by highlighting the relevant code bits that go with it. More Youtubers should do that.

But then again it is hard to grasp a full source dump and I've never committed to spending weeks trying to map it out.
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Old 16 November 2021, 18:17   #55
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I didn't say easy to understand, but well structured code is usually easier to figure out. Duke3D is full of spaghetti code, I mean look at this ~1800 line menus() function:
https://github.com/videogamepreserva...MENUES.C#L1188
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Old 16 November 2021, 18:48   #56
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I didn't say easy to understand, but well structured code is usually easier to figure out. Duke3D is full of spaghetti code, I mean look at this ~1800 line menus() function:
https://github.com/videogamepreserva...MENUES.C#L1188
Now when you have practiced, you might want to take a look for a Alien Breed 3D - TKG sources. I have heard that they are unsorted asm

Last edited by utri007; 16 November 2021 at 19:28.
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Old 17 November 2021, 07:37   #57
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Now when you have practiced, you might want to take a look for a Alien Breed 3D - TKG sources. I have heard that they are unsorted asm
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Old 17 November 2021, 11:41   #58
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I didn't say easy to understand, but well structured code is usually easier to figure out. Duke3D is full of spaghetti code, I mean look at this ~1800 line menus() function:
https://github.com/videogamepreserva...MENUES.C#L1188
I remember seeing a video about that. It was something like the source code for Build is great and the source code for Duke3D is piss-poor. Or the other way around.
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Old 17 November 2021, 18:45   #59
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The Build engine has sparse comments, cryptic variable and function names, and magic numbers, so it's not great in terms of readability, but it's definitely not poorly written. They didn't call Ken Silverman a teenage genius for nothing.
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Old 16 January 2022, 08:00   #60
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After being on hold for a while, the first version it's finally available on Aminet:
https://aminet.net/package/game/shoot/jfduke3d
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