12 November 2018, 22:35 | #41 |
Gimmemore Commodore
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I have very few issues using Netsurf with a Vampire 600 V2 and most web pages render more or less correctly. Some pages can take up to 2 minutes to render but who cares. When I'm chilling out in front of my A600, which is happening more and more often these days, I'm not really in a hurry for web sites to spontaneously flash up on my screen.
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12 November 2018, 23:51 | #42 | ||
mä vaan
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Did you try Netsurf by Chris Young or SDL/Framebuffer fork by Arti? I mean difference is big when trying it with real Amiga. It requires about 10mb less ram and is 2x faster. I used to have 68040 40mhz with 32mb ram and Netsurf was (slow) but useable sites like this. Rendering this site took about 30 seconds. I didn't even know that there is a Windows version of Netsurf? It Works very well with 800mhz/1gb ram OS4 machine. Quote:
Last edited by utri007; 13 November 2018 at 00:00. |
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13 November 2018, 03:56 | #43 |
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Everyone has made valid points.
I have been convinced that 3.x will not get a native web browser.
Although it casts the amiga community in a rather uninspiring light, it pales in comparison to the fact that the same community have kept an obsoleted computer alive for 2 decades. But there is still hope, as every true amiga enthusiast must have that spark in his nature. I threw an idea out in an earlier post and the same solution has been mentioned in one flavor or another by others and it fits the spirit of the amiga community. It is simply to offload the task to a device that has the resources. And it's very Amiga.
There will have to be some pretty trick programming to make the experience seem more than a webcam pointed at some remote computer's browser, but amiga programmers are very good at banging on hardware and making things work that theoretically should not. I'm sure the demo scene has given them some unorthodox tools. And I say all this with a bit of confidence because earlier today I stumbled on a page describing the very hardware required for the solution. Like, to a T. Of course, the link is on another computer, but I nearly $h37 a brick as I read the spec list. Maybe someone here has seen it as well. Last edited by nolunchman; 13 November 2018 at 04:04. |
13 November 2018, 04:54 | #44 |
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A web browser on 3.x? I think the Vampire V4 would be something of a minimum (512MB RAM, faster processor, ...).
There is a lot of room for improvement in the current software stack:
On top of that I think Netsurf is good compromise in between full-fat browsers (ports of firefox, webkit) and lighter browsers (Ibrowse, aweb). Like all things Amiga this process will happen a step at a time. Maybe in future Vampire generations we will see an ASIC. That would make a huge difference... but that is not a near-term thing. In the meantime as I noted above there is a lot that can be done to optimize the current stack. |
13 November 2018, 16:06 | #45 | |
Zone Friend
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To those of you that keep mentioning Netsurf as if it was a valid alternative: have you actually tried to use it on a modern system (where it's not limited by CPU or RAM ressources)? I ran the Linux port a while ago - and it was a horrible experience.
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I'm not sure I'd describe that as "very Amiga". An Amiga is simply not up to the task of displaying 2018's WWW. Given that an Amiga is (at best) 1992 technology with some 1997 aftermarket upgrades, that's not a big deal as far as I'm concerned. Trying to somehow force it to handle today's tasks is not doing it a favor IMHO - it reminds me of those actresses that we remember as hot chicks from the eighties who occasionally show up on TV episodes these days looking like horrific science experiments because they're not allowed to age gracefully. |
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13 November 2018, 16:17 | #46 | |
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13 November 2018, 16:49 | #47 | |
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I know DamienD already quoted this, but that is a brilliant way to look at the situation |
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13 November 2018, 20:27 | #48 | ||
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I am impressed by what IBrowse 2.4 can do with less than 1MB of code and a few megs of RAM. Would adding some more 'modern' features really blow it up? Or could the Amiga do more with less and prove just how bloated and inefficient those other systems are? We will never know if we don't try... |
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13 November 2018, 21:43 | #49 |
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yeah i did it. natively on my windows, wasnt much impressed as well, and therefore i think 10 years old webkit as aros owb doesnt fall short in comparison. but it is maybe still an option on amiga or amigalike sytems in comparison to aweb or ibrowse.
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13 November 2018, 22:50 | #50 | |
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but i don't want to argue any further than that. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I am clearly aware that what I want is frivolous and pointless in the long run, but some people like jumping out of planes without parachutes or launching a convertible into space. To each, his own. getting back to the original topic, the hardware i mentioned a few posts ago is spec'd out as follows: fits Amiga 2000, 3000 and 4000 (Zorro 2/3 compatible). the 500/1000 guys will surely find a way to make it work. feast your eyes on this: Xilinx 7 series FPGA RTG up to 1920x1080 32bit AGA support (scandoubler) Dual 666MHz ARM Cortex A9 coprocessors to offload computing tasks like JPEG, MP3 decoding and graphics acceleration 1GB DDR3 RAM (hopefully has a couple extra slots) Ethernet interface (I'm assuming 1GB since it's on the board itself) SD Card interface Drivers, firmware and schematics will be open sourced I couldn't find any more information than that, but it's even more than I hypothesized (I would have been happy with a single additional ARM processor). This guy really wants to impress his friends...and so do I. expected release in Jan/Feb If that didn't just perk up some ears and raise some eyebrows, I don't know what will. |
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14 November 2018, 00:26 | #51 | ||
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14 November 2018, 01:00 | #52 | ||
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At least that's half of the solution. We have to see what cores will be made available for it and how creative people get the extra ARM cpus. Quote:
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14 November 2018, 01:22 | #53 | |
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Quote:
There is NO browser that can handle the amount of JS shoved down the throats of the user these days. As a matter of fact, you could probably get by using a P4 CPU with the web still if it weren't for JS. Yea, I need a new computer? WTH! My computer is sooo slow! Why? What a crock of sh!t the web has turned into! NO! You don't need a new computer! I use many old computers to go to certain website that have no JS what so ever and they load very fast! I even have a DOS machine thaty is usable! Take iBrowse for instance.... It works great even on my A1200 with an ACA accelerator.We just need it to get updated securtity. You can already turn off JS easily. What iBrowse would REALLY need is an Ad Blocker! OK, I gotta quit now or I'll go crazy! There should be a a world wide initiative to ban JS forever! Oh yea, and one more thing.... modern sites don't use tables anymore (I built hundreds of sites back in the day - everything nice and tidy in tables) which makes the content jump all over the place while loading. I STILL fall for trying to hit the volume control on youtube before the page is loaded! ARG!!!!! Last edited by Amiga4000; 14 November 2018 at 02:05. |
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14 November 2018, 01:24 | #54 | |
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21 November 2018, 23:01 | #55 |
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Instead of talking about the bar being a modern fully featured browser and how impossible that is.. I would be kinda fine with a "bit less shitty experience" update. ;p
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21 November 2018, 23:10 | #56 | |
mä vaan
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Quote:
Note that Amiga OS3 version is updated every time when someone add code to repository. Logs here : https://source.netsurf-browser.org/netsurf.git/log/ Autobuild scripts updates Amiga version automatically. https://ci.netsurf-browser.org/builds/amigaos3/ Seems that Chris has made changes amiga specified sources about four hours ago. Last edited by utri007; 21 November 2018 at 23:19. |
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22 November 2018, 03:16 | #57 |
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@thread
Just for grins I installed the latest Websurf (3.8, 29 August) on my Windows 10 PC. 4GHz processor, SSD, lots of RAM. This web site's home page takes about 5 seconds to reload in Netsurf. Near-instant in Chrome. Next... forums.amiga.org: about 6 seconds in Netsurf, near-instant in Chrome. Conclusion: Netsurf is slow. Using it to judge potential performance of other browser candidates may not be such a great idea. Please note I am not criticizing Netsurf in any way. This is just an observation on performance. |
22 November 2018, 10:13 | #58 | |
mä vaan
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Quote:
Eab.abime.net loads/reloads here 0.6/0,8 seconds forums.amiga.org loads/reloads 1.7/2.3 seconds with 3.0ghz / Win 10. So wondering whyt it took 5 and 6 seconds in your machine? Tested same version of Netsurf. When I start Netsurf with my Amiga it uses about 11mb ram. With Windows it uses 12mb ram and for a comparison purposes, starting Firefox requires 220mb ram, Chrome 345mb ram Edge 104mb ram. Conclusion Netsurf uses 10-30x less ram than modern webrowers. Last edited by utri007; 22 November 2018 at 10:18. |
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22 November 2018, 10:23 | #59 |
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How many extensions are you running in those other browsers though? That needs to be taken into account where RAM usage is concerned
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22 November 2018, 15:27 | #60 |
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How much RAM and processing power does modern SSL need for all the https?
If I remember correctly, the binary of AmiSSL4 for 68k is around 4MB, but is the code re-entrant, and how much RAM does it consume per SSL connection? |
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