AA3000+ DSP emulation

[trixster]

Dsp starts to overtake the 060 when you zoom in, ie when more work is being done

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

The 3000+ was canceled and replaced by A4000. If the DSP would have been included in any Amiga it would have been in the A4000. Someone apparently decided the A4000 would have no DSP.
I can't see commodore adding a DSP to their low end computer. The more expensive Falcon with its 030 + 56001 DSP didn't do well in terms of sales...

The 3000+ was cancelled due to funding, the A4000 was a last ditch desperate attempt to sell a new Amiga which is why it didn't include DSP or anything else innovative.

[Valken]

I wish the AA3000 came out or at least an AGA + DSP upgrade on a card for existing 1500/2000/3000 owners back then. My friend was aching to get AGA for his 3000 then.

I see this as a chicken and egg syndrome - no software, no emulation. Vice Versa.

If someone would provide a proof of concept or a set of DSP libraries that can say accelerator 3D functions such as low poly rotation, and let coders PATCH existing games or support 3D game engines like Doom or Quake or native Amiga 3D engines, then I can see it coming to life. Something like a hardware opengl or WARP 3D translation layer but with the limitations or uniqueness of the DSP.

Or try porting Atari Falcon or Super Famicom DSP code over or even created a shared library for both + Mac communities.

Remember, if you build it, they will come.

[trixster]

Well, the dsp is being worked on but the hardware incompatibilities now appear to have been traced and worked around, so it’s working with 030 and a large number of different 060 accelerator boards.

And here it’s doing something:



It’s only a small step but it’s a step nonetheless.

[Valken]

@ Trixster - I think that is a good demo. But we need more to support the community.

Maybe looking at SNES or Super Famicom DSP games for ideas on how to accelerate games would be a good idea and create motivation and support for the DSP on Amiga.

We need more than a proof of concept but demos, games or application, even ONE worthwhile one with many user support may be enough to kick it off.

Acceleration is always better if we can utilize as much as possible. Even a generic OpenCL type acceleration codepath support would be good to have.

[Toni Wilen]

As I already said, working or not working in real hardware is mostly irrelevant for emulation purposes. Used IO ports and others were already documented.

Requirements are still the same: there must be existing GPL compatible DSP chip emulation. This exact chip or very close variant.

[trixster]

@valken your enthusiasm is superb but I don’t think the level of uptake will ever match your optimism, sadly. The DSP will remain a niche within a niche due to significant barriers, the least of which is the excessive cost of purchasing or building an AA3000+. You can count the number of machine’s ‘in the wild’ on Hese’s amibay thread; I doubt it’s currently more than 50. There are also only about 6 known active users looking at the issues surrounding the hardware on the A1K dsp thread, and non of those are software engineers who could tackle the ideas of porting software which you’re talking about, let alone using the dsp to accelerate doom/quake or even warp3d. That’s just not going to happen, alas. I guess we might eventually see a plugin for amigaamp or a library to decode mp3s, but even that’s a lofty goal for the moment.

The Falcon uses a different dsp so we will get nothing from there, and requests for info from the Mac community have been met with mostly silence.

[BomberMillz]

Interesting thread.


I will address the white elephant in the room though:


Why was a machine with mostly Motorola parts NOT using a Motorola DSP?


I am very lucky to own both a Quadra 660AV and an Atari Falcon (both the different DSPs discussed) and have often wondered why the Apple (and now the proto A3000) used a non Motorola DSP.


Is the 3210 much better than the 56xxx line?


Its a shame really, as you could have picked Dougs (DML) brains about his Quake 2/Halflife Falcon DSP code.


There are a few 3210 bits in the wild (mainly sound processing software and Photo manipulation) on the Apple machine, but you are on your own coding for that beast otherwise.


(As an aside, I did try to read/understand the MC560001 PRM many years ago, when I was a teenager...It wasnt pretty).

[Pyromania]

Hopefully Hese will keep building and selling the AA3000+. It looks like an interesting Amiga.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by BomberMillz

Interesting thread.

I will address the white elephant in the room though:

Why was a machine with mostly Motorola parts NOT using a Motorola DSP?

I can't look for it right now, but I have some vague memory about hearing Dave Haynie talk about the reasons for choosing the HP DSP in A3000+
Its on youtube somewhere..

[Gorf]

Its AT&T and not HP.
The small real-time kernel that manages the DSP, seemed to be a nice fit for AmigaOS to talk to via libraries.

[Cyprian]

Originally Posted by BomberMillz

Is the 3210 much better than the 56xxx line?

quick comparison:

Falcon's 56001 32MHz 96kB 0-wait-state RAM, 56-bit integer math, no fp math. Its own access to fast external I/O port and audio subsystem (without touching the main RAM). Indirect access to the main ram trough the DMA, Host port to the CPU.

Amiga's 3210 50MHz 8kB 0-wait-state RAM, 32-bit integer math, 40bit fp math. Access to the audio (Paula) trough the main ram. Direct access to the main ram (only in long-word aligned 32 bit chunks, no byte/word access)

Both can run a couple instructions in parallel.

Would be cool to compare cycles per instructions. Unfortunately I'm not able find a table with instruction timings (like divide) for DSP3210.

[BomberMillz]

Originally Posted by Cyprian

quick comparison:

Falcon's 56001 32MHz 96kB 0-wait-state RAM, 56-bit integer math, no fp math. Its own access to fast external I/O port and audio subsystem (without touching the main RAM). Indirect access to the main ram trough the DMA, Host port to the CPU.

Amiga's 3210 50MHz 8kB 0-wait-state RAM, 32-bit integer math, 40bit fp math. Access to the audio (Paula) trough the main ram. Direct access to the main ram (only in long-word aligned 32 bit chunks, no byte/word access)

Both can run a couple instructions in parallel.

Would be cool to compare cycles per instructions. Unfortunately I'm not able find a table with instruction timings (like divide) for DSP3210.

Hi Cyprian


I was thinking direct clinical DSP head-to-head comparisons, but as you have demonstrated, the actual interfacing limitations and datapath/device address routing on both come into play too.

It would be interesting to see someone harness the particulars of the AT&T3210 as set up in the Amiga 3000+, like DML has for theF030. However, unless the A3000+ mainboard gets to be more mainstream, I dont know if it will be properly pushed. Heres hoping that happens!

[trixster]

Maybe the biggest hurdle for dsp3210 is the lack of a complete copy of the “AT&T dsp3210 Digital Signal Processor Information Manual”. The scans on the internet are incomplete.

If anyone can lay hands on a copy of the Information Manual it would be an enormous help to the guys trying to programme the chip

[BomberMillz]

From scouring the net a while back, I managed to source the official AT&T datasheet for the DSP3210:

ATATS008-1.zip

Maybe this might help.

[trixster]

Hi! Yeah, I think we have that one. It’s the Information Manual that’s sadly missing

[BomberMillz]

Originally Posted by trixster

Hi! Yeah, I think we have that one. It’s the Information Manual that’s sadly missing

Sorry. The nearest I got was a company that Apple had contracted to supply an ARTA DSP dev kit with documentation for the AV Quadras (Spectral Innovations).



Unfortunately, the dev kit was quite pricey (~$995) and the number of 660/840AV Quadras sold was not overwhelming. Hence, there is no copy of this kit floating around the net (well, that I could ever find anyway).

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

I can't look for it right now, but I have some vague memory about hearing Dave Haynie talk about the reasons for choosing the HP DSP in A3000+
Its on youtube somewhere..

AT&T yes, of course not HP, sorry about that.. Anyway, here's the YouTube clip I was thinking about.. Its Dave Haynie talking about the DSP.. He simply says they were approached by AT&T..
It starts at about 31.50 into the video.. (He also mentions the DSP did floating point math approx 10x faster than a 040)
[ Show youtube player ]

[Cyprian]

very interesting interview, besides the final part which is IMO just childish.

[BomberMillz]

@Trixter:

OK, I dont know if its any help, or what exactly you need to find out, but I have located a datasheet with the instruction set for the AT&T DSP32C. It appears they are compatible with the 3210 to some degree (same family?).

Would this be any good? What sort of compiler are you using?