Legal: Amiga schematics

[michaelz]

On this moment I'm redrawing the Amiga 500 schematics as a personal project. It's progressing really slowly, I tend to learn best of repetition instead of doing thing in one go and then never do it for a long time. On this moment though, I'm starting to wonder; how legal is it if I would share this with the world?

They schematic is logically a one-on-one, but just logically. It's not a technical one-on-one that looks precisely the same. Any ideas (preferably with references) on this one? Can I share my schematics freely? Or should I perhaps wait for a few years when some kind of right has passed? (Copyright, patents, trademarks or some obscure right)

[Pat the Cat]

Patents last maximum of 20 years. (Expired)

Trademarks are indefinite - so long as the annual license fee has been paid (it hasn't been paid for over 2 decades that I am aware of).

Your only legal loophole is copyright breach, so make sure you declare "For educational and scientific use only" with a date and you should be OK.

Big problem if people try to sell such things, but educational / scientific disclaimer gets you OK for free distribution of documents.

I suggest you check local legislature, but that broadly is how you get away with it.

[EugeneNine]

What are you redrawing them in? I thought about doing them in KiCAD

[idrougge]

No-one is going to sue you for a schematic. Look at www.amigapcb.org for example.

[dalek]

and have you seen?:

http://www.amigawiki.de/doku.php?id=...ice:schematics

[Zetr0]

@Thread

I will point out I am not a solicitor (lawyer) -

I have studied 3 Law modules at Uni for my BSc which include Copyright, Contractual and Intellectual Property Law. (Within the EU).

Again I am not a solicitor - I would always advise that if you are concern - please contact a legal professional.

These are my opinions working with Copyright / IP / Patents over the last 10 (ish) years.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Patents last maximum of 20 years. (Expired)

Not precisely true, patents in the engineering field are generally granted for longer terms than those in the pharmaceutical field - these change from country to country.

Within Europe for non pharmaceutical patents it is indeed 20 years from the date of filing.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Trademarks are indefinite - so long as the annual license fee has been paid (it hasn't been paid for over 2 decades that I am aware of).

Trade Marks are NOT indefinite.

There are two type of "TRADE MARK" registered and unregistered, the former offers the holder of said trade mark more leverage in court. have a look at CTM (Community Trade Marks) - however in the western world of Europe, Trademarks are applied to a product or service - if this service or product is not marketed / sold for three years you lose the Trade Mark.

Registering a trademark (in Europe) costs about £1200 pending filing fees - Unregistered Trade Marks follow the above principle but have less leverage in court.

For example
If coke stopped selling that specificity shaped bottle for 3 years then anyone could apply to register it or arguably use it as an unregistered trademark - again the latter gives less argument in court.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Your only legal loophole is copyright breach, so make sure you declare "For educational and scientific use only" with a date and you should be OK.

Bit of a misconception here my friend -

If you buzz out all the pins and terminals of anything and prepare a book based on your findings it is YOUR copyright i.e. your legal work - if you used any other publications in the publishing of your work (like graphics or other entities photographs) then obviously you would need to contact those copyright holders - but if you have at it with a multimeter and a ream of paper - draw your own diagrams you are in the clear legally.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Big problem if people try to sell such things, but educational / scientific disclaimer gets you OK for free distribution of documents.

I suggest you check local legislature, but that broadly is how you get away with it.

Say I decided to take a Harley Motorcycle apart - picture by picture - bolt by bolt - I then compile these into a book of "Zetr0's Harley Tear Down" I am perfectly entitled to do so, I would have to be careful not to include Harley Branding (Trade Mark(s)) - so avoid that being on the cover.

If I take my A500, using my pencil, pens paper and multimeter - and make a bunch of schematics and publish them I am in my right to do so - I can do the same for the PS4 or latest gadget - I cannot include any trademarks from those brands nor can I use any previously published material that relates to my research without permission from the copyright holders.

I hope that helps.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by EugeneNine

What are you redrawing them in? I thought about doing them in KiCAD

I'm using kicad

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by idrougge

No-one is going to sue you for a schematic. Look at www.amigapcb.org for example.

That they exist doesn't mean I won't get sued. It just states that the current right holder hasn't started doing so.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by dalek

and have you seen?:

http://www.amigawiki.de/doku.php?id=...ice:schematics

I have seen those, but they are pdf's and not usable to convert into her era.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Patents last maximum of 20 years. (Expired)

Trademarks are indefinite - so long as the annual license fee has been paid (it hasn't been paid for over 2 decades that I am aware of).

Your only legal loophole is copyright breach, so make sure you declare "For educational and scientific use only" with a date and you should be OK.

Big problem if people try to sell such things, but educational / scientific disclaimer gets you OK for free distribution of documents.

I suggest you check local legislature, but that broadly is how you get away with it.

Thank you for the time you took to answer my question. Even though it might not be completely true, at least it gives me some perspective.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@Thread

I will point out I am not a solicitor (lawyer) -

I have studied 3 Law modules at Uni for my BSc which include Copyright, Contractual and Intellectual Property Law. (Within the EU).

Again I am not a solicitor - I would always advise that if you are concern - please contact a legal professional.

These are my opinions working with Copyright / IP / Patents over the last 10 (ish) years.



Not precisely true, patents in the engineering field are generally granted for longer terms than those in the pharmaceutical field - these change from country to country.

Within Europe for non pharmaceutical patents it is indeed 20 years from the date of filing.



Trade Marks are NOT indefinite.

There are two type of "TRADE MARK" registered and unregistered, the former offers the holder of said trade mark more leverage in court. have a look at CTM (Community Trade Marks) - however in the western world of Europe, Trademarks are applied to a product or service - if this service or product is not marketed / sold for three years you lose the Trade Mark.

Registering a trademark (in Europe) costs about £1200 pending filing fees - Unregistered Trade Marks follow the above principle but have less leverage in court.

For example
If coke stopped selling that specificity shaped bottle for 3 years then anyone could apply to register it or arguably use it as an unregistered trademark - again the latter gives less argument in court.



Bit of a misconception here my friend -

If you buzz out all the pins and terminals of anything and prepare a book based on your findings it is YOUR copyright i.e. your legal work - if you used any other publications in the publishing of your work (like graphics or other entities photographs) then obviously you would need to contact those copyright holders - but if you have at it with a multimeter and a ream of paper - draw your own diagrams you are in the clear legally.



Say I decided to take a Harley Motorcycle apart - picture by picture - bolt by bolt - I then compile these into a book of "Zetr0's Harley Tear Down" I am perfectly entitled to do so, I would have to be careful not to include Harley Branding (Trade Mark(s)) - so avoid that being on the cover.

If I take my A500, using my pencil, pens paper and multimeter - and make a bunch of schematics and publish them I am in my right to do so - I can do the same for the PS4 or latest gadget - I cannot include any trademarks from those brands nor can I use any previously published material that relates to my research without permission from the copyright holders.

I hope that helps.

Thank you for a long and well written answer. This is a good insight in a legislative perspective.

[Pat the Cat]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

Trade Marks are NOT indefinite.


....

Registering a trademark (in Europe) costs about £1200 pending filing fees - Unregistered Trade Marks follow the above principle but have less leverage in court.

...

Say I decided to take a Harley Motorcycle apart - picture by picture - bolt by bolt - I then compile these into a book of "Zetr0's Harley Tear Down" I am perfectly entitled to do so, I would have to be careful not to include Harley Branding (Trade Mark(s)) - so avoid that being on the cover.

The fee is annual. The entity registering the trademark has to pay every year. Patents also have to be paid for every year they are in effect.

The real disputes only happen when there is a commercial interest - people draw and paint Harley images, coke bottles etc. That's fine.

Mass producing and SELLING them is where the problem start - no commercial loss, no case to answer.

Unlike other forms of intellectual property (e.g., patents and copyrights) a registered trademark can, theoretically, last forever. So long as a trademark's use is continuous a trademark holder may keep the mark registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office by filing Section 8 Affidavit(s) of Continuous Use as well as Section 9 Applications for renewal, as required.

Source:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

[Daedalus]

Trademarks are also just trademarks - they don't protect the work itself, only associated branding. So as long as the schematics aren't sold under an Amiga or Commodore brand or something like that there's no problem trademark-wise. And don't forget that quoting US regulations from Wikipedia doesn't necessarily mean they apply in the Netherlands Like patent law, trademark law changes from country to country. Trademarks in the UK only have to be renewed every decade, for example.

[Zetr0]

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

The fee is annual. The entity registering the trademark has to pay every year. Patents also have to be paid for every year they are in effect.

This is not the case with the CTM (or EUIPO) the term is 10 years - you can renew the Trademark assign with the service / product.

However as you pointed out as long as the product / service is being met (as in not lapsed for a period of 3 years) the holder of the trademark can continue to renew it every 10 years.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

The real disputes only happen when there is a commercial interest - people draw and paint Harley images, coke bottles etc. That's fine.

Mass producing and SELLING them is where the problem start - no commercial loss, no case to answer.

I would argue that this comes down to branding and how different IP holders protect themselves obviously differently - some as aggressive as a wounded animal not wanting to dilute (as they would perceive) their brand - some however not fussed as long as it doesn't damage their "good will"

In regards to art, that is handled differently as one would not be selling the product or service as such we can then move into a fair use area - which can become very grey very quickly.

Originally Posted by Pat the Cat

Source:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

I am going by the CTM European standard here, not all countries ascribe to the CTM, the US is one of them. Sadly when it comes to intellectual copyright in the US, it seems to increase in line with Mickey Mouse's birthday

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by michaelz

That they exist doesn't mean I won't get sued. It just states that the current right holder hasn't started doing so.

Yes. And they won't do so because they can't afford it and they certainly can't afford proving that they are their rightful owners in a court of law.

[Pat the Cat]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

This is not the case with the CTM (or EUIPO) the term is 10 years - you can renew the Trademark assign with the service / product.

However as you pointed out as long as the product / service is being met (as in not lapsed for a period of 3 years) the holder of the trademark can continue to renew it every 10 years.



I would argue that this comes down to branding and how different IP holders protect themselves obviously differently - some as aggressive as a wounded animal not wanting to dilute (as they would perceive) their brand - some however not fussed as long as it doesn't damage their "good will"

In regards to art, that is handled differently as one would not be selling the product or service as such we can then move into a fair use area - which can become very grey very quickly.



I am going by the CTM European standard here, not all countries ascribe to the CTM, the US is one of them. Sadly when it comes to intellectual copyright in the US, it seems to increase in line with Mickey Mouse's birthday

As the discussion is about an American originated Trademark, any attempt to put European rules in place are irrelavant to the discussion.

[ptyerman]

Pat, will you PLEASE refrain from filling every thread with incorrect and damaging information and useless drivel. It's beyond annoying now!

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Yes. And they won't do so because they can't afford it and they certainly can't afford proving that they are their rightful owners in a court of law.

This is only true as long as the current owner doesn't sell the right to someone who will sue. I don't want to step onto any right holder's feet because the current right holder hasn't got the deep pockets to sue.

Getting away with something illegal isn't the same as being legal.

It does however give some perspective. Maybe I should just share it somewhere with a clause that if there is a rightful owner and he contacts me, I will take it down if he can prove it. That would make it a lot easier. It's not like there is anyone making any profit on the old designs anyway.

[idrougge]

Stop worrying and do stuff instead. No-one is ever going to sue you.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Stop worrying and do stuff instead. No-one is ever going to sue you.

I'm doing stuff (quite busy in Kicad). It's more about the sharing that gets me thinking if there are strings attached that I can not foresee.