Alternative to expensive scandoubler

DoogUK · 24 March 2009, 10:58

Somone just posted this over at Aorg.

Looks interesting to me.

http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html

Jope · 24 March 2009, 11:02

Yep. Buy one and test it?

That's not an awful lot cheaper than an Amiga scandoubler, though.

It hints that it auto-adjusts for 50Hz but the outputs are all rated at 60Hz.. "Automatic 3:2/2:2 file mode detection" looks like it duplicates some frames to get it to sync to 60Hz..

chiark · 24 March 2009, 11:14

Indeed, it always outputs at 60Hz.

Looks like we'll all be keeping some CRTs or scart leads around for some time really, doesn't it?

Jope · 24 March 2009, 11:21

TFT TVs are fine, most have scart sockets in them.

My LG monitorTV scrolls very nicely too.

DC33 · 24 March 2009, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

most have scart sockets in them.

Unfortunately not down under my dear friend

chiark · 24 March 2009, 11:32

True... I need to do more testing on the TFT TV/monitor I have (Samsung 510MP) - will post results of that vs 1942 vs Microvitec 1402...

alexh · 24 March 2009, 11:32

That is a Cypress CM-397

They aren't the greatest scandoublers in the world. They are not 24-bit. They always convert 50Hz into 60Hz (which kills smooth scrolling) but they are (relatively) cheap.

The device uses is a Sunplus DigiShow SPV311a

MST9883C-LF-110 = Triple 8-bit ADC
W9816G6 = SDRAM

DC33 · 24 March 2009, 11:43

@alexh
Thanks for this very interesting and valuable info. You are always full of it! (great info that is)

Calgor · 24 March 2009, 15:24

If it's not 24 bit, why is it advertised on that page as such? (Given marketing people I am skeptical of the spec sheet, haha maybe it is pseudo-24bit!)

alexh · 24 March 2009, 15:30

It's "24-bit compatible" which is not the same as "24-bit capable".

Calgor · 24 March 2009, 17:41

What about this one (I have one but not yet used):

Arcade RGBS CGA/EGA/YUV TO 2 VGA CONVERTER (Gonbes GBS-8220)

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Arcade-RGBS-C...mZ310129709475

Review:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3508.0

It is supposed to be 24bit, not sure if it changes 50Hz to 60Hz. Has separate inputs for RGBS, RGBHV, Component, and outputs to 2 VGA outputs at once. I think theoretically you may be able to use it for 2 amigas at once(connected but not both displayed). Anyway, hope it works.

I love it how the reviewer first reviewed the scandoubler on LCD and then complained about softness.

alexh · 24 March 2009, 17:51

Much nicer price.... would be good to see what the chip is.

hit · 24 March 2009, 18:51

here is a pdf. you can zoom in and read whats on the chips: http://www.gonbes.com/down/EN-8200III-1.pdf
Edit: oh, a third one, bad luck

Edit#2: seen the "specifications" ? what do these P10, P11, etc mean?

kipper2k · 24 March 2009, 19:34

I just bought one of these (the ambery model)...

I had a regular RGB 23 - 9 pin video cable that was supposed to work with a special 9 - 15pin vga adapter cable.... long story short... didnt work

I had to do a little bit of research into the A500 pinout and make myself a replacement 23 pin to 15 pin vga cable (using a cut down 25 pin connector cos i never had a 23 pin one)

I plugged the cable into the adapter and it works pretty darn good. picture is not fuzzy, however there are vertical lines appearing on the VGA monitor that are noticeable (only on light background screens). It is displayed on a Samsung T245 widescreen monitor using the VGA input.

Playing Killing game show looked really good. Text is easy to read in Workbench and the picture is stable and square.

I will post some pictures later on to show it and show all my schematics etc. mabbe someone can figure a way to clean up the vertical lines. there is nothing in the adapter itself that can be altered with the exception of the eprom but i aint touching that

Jope · 24 March 2009, 20:43

The vertical lines are probably a result of the panel's scaler.

rkauer · 24 March 2009, 22:56

Indeed! Even LCD TV who accepts 15kHz directly make scaling and show vertical "ghost" stripes.

Calgor · 25 March 2009, 03:01

One should always check a scandoubler's performance on a decent CRT while paying attention to the horizontal and vertical scanrates. Otherwise LCD may cover up some of the faults or make its own faults (and then when you go to a different LCD it doesn't work properly). Hence why I was amused at the tester in the link complaining about softness on the LCD and implying it was due to the scandoubler.

Also, it is difficult to say which ones are better as one person's perfect display is another person's rubbish display.

The XRGB2 and/or XRGB2+ are said to be the best but you can't get them anymore. Don't know how good the XRGB3 is. Don't even know if they mainain 50Hz in their output.

I won't be testing my afore-mentioned PCB board anytime soon as other stuff taking precendence and it's too much effort to link the Amiga's RGB to the RGBS input (The VGA input may not accept 15KHz).

kipper2k · 25 March 2009, 04:10

Here are a few pics of the Ambery converter in action. I had to hand make a cable so the shielding (or rather lack of) may be causing a few of the vertical lines. I've ordered a couple of real 23 pin connectors so once i get that i will tidy up the cable a bit.

Here is the cabling i used.

Here are some pics taken of it using an LG 50" TV... Pictures are taken at low light so they appear a bit grainy.

It is hard to see the vertical lines. They are not that bad, and i did notice out of the 3 lcd and plasma monitors i tried the results are very different, with the plasma better than the LCD's (Let the flame war begin lol).

Overall i think the quality is really good and is definately worth buying to give new life to the A500

if anyone wants to see the wiring schematic i used, lemme know and i'll post it.

rkauer · 25 March 2009, 04:25

Yes, please, do that!

Calgor · 25 March 2009, 05:22

The reason that my LCD gives vertical stripes on some non-standard Amiga modes is because it detects the gfx mode as f.ex. 640x480 when it should have detected it is 720x576. So some pixels are missed (not really detectable as easily on lores games but medres workbench you can tell) which squashes the picture and results in vertical stripes. I think an indivision with black border set to on may get rid of this problem for a few modes.

If receiving vertical stripes you should check your monitor's menu to see what gfx mode it has detected and scaled the input to compared with what it should have detected. Of course with CRTs you don't have these problems of "resolution detection".

24 March 2009, 10:58	#1
DoogUK Doogster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dorset Posts: 1,069	Alternative to expensive scandoubler Somone just posted this over at Aorg. Looks interesting to me. http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html

24 March 2009, 11:32	#7
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,479	That is a Cypress CM-397 They aren't the greatest scandoublers in the world. They are not 24-bit. They always convert 50Hz into 60Hz (which kills smooth scrolling) but they are (relatively) cheap. The device uses is a Sunplus DigiShow SPV311a MST9883C-LF-110 = Triple 8-bit ADC W9816G6 = SDRAM Last edited by alexh; 24 March 2009 at 11:39.

24 March 2009, 18:51	#13
hit Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: planet earth Posts: 1,115	here is a pdf. you can zoom in and read whats on the chips: http://www.gonbes.com/down/EN-8200III-1.pdf Edit: oh, a third one, bad luck Edit#2: seen the "specifications" ? what do these P10, P11, etc mean? Last edited by hit; 24 March 2009 at 18:57.

24 March 2009, 19:34	#14
kipper2k Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Thunder Bay, Canada Posts: 4,323	I just bought one of these (the ambery model)... I had a regular RGB 23 - 9 pin video cable that was supposed to work with a special 9 - 15pin vga adapter cable.... long story short... didnt work I had to do a little bit of research into the A500 pinout and make myself a replacement 23 pin to 15 pin vga cable (using a cut down 25 pin connector cos i never had a 23 pin one) I plugged the cable into the adapter and it works pretty darn good. picture is not fuzzy, however there are vertical lines appearing on the VGA monitor that are noticeable (only on light background screens). It is displayed on a Samsung T245 widescreen monitor using the VGA input. Playing Killing game show looked really good. Text is easy to read in Workbench and the picture is stable and square. I will post some pictures later on to show it and show all my schematics etc. mabbe someone can figure a way to clean up the vertical lines. there is nothing in the adapter itself that can be altered with the exception of the eprom but i aint touching that Last edited by kipper2k; 24 March 2009 at 20:10.

25 March 2009, 04:10	#18
kipper2k Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Thunder Bay, Canada Posts: 4,323	Here are a few pics of the Ambery converter in action. I had to hand make a cable so the shielding (or rather lack of) may be causing a few of the vertical lines. I've ordered a couple of real 23 pin connectors so once i get that i will tidy up the cable a bit. Here is the cabling i used. Here are some pics taken of it using an LG 50" TV... Pictures are taken at low light so they appear a bit grainy. It is hard to see the vertical lines. They are not that bad, and i did notice out of the 3 lcd and plasma monitors i tried the results are very different, with the plasma better than the LCD's (Let the flame war begin lol). Overall i think the quality is really good and is definately worth buying to give new life to the A500 if anyone wants to see the wiring schematic i used, lemme know and i'll post it. Last edited by kipper2k; 25 March 2009 at 04:23.

24 March 2009, 11:02	#2
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,929	Yep. Buy one and test it? That's not an awful lot cheaper than an Amiga scandoubler, though. It hints that it auto-adjusts for 50Hz but the outputs are all rated at 60Hz.. "Automatic 3:2/2:2 file mode detection" looks like it duplicates some frames to get it to sync to 60Hz..

24 March 2009, 11:14	#3
chiark Needs a life Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 1,707	Indeed, it always outputs at 60Hz. Looks like we'll all be keeping some CRTs or scart leads around for some time really, doesn't it?

24 March 2009, 11:21	#4
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,929	TFT TVs are fine, most have scart sockets in them. My LG monitorTV scrolls very nicely too.

24 March 2009, 11:43	#8
DC33 Zone Friend Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bathurst Australia Posts: 281	@alexh Thanks for this very interesting and valuable info. You are always full of it! (great info that is)

24 March 2009, 15:24	#9
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	If it's not 24 bit, why is it advertised on that page as such? (Given marketing people I am skeptical of the spec sheet, haha maybe it is pseudo-24bit!)

24 March 2009, 15:30	#10
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,479	It's "24-bit compatible" which is not the same as "24-bit capable".

24 March 2009, 17:41	#11
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	What about this one (I have one but not yet used): Arcade RGBS CGA/EGA/YUV TO 2 VGA CONVERTER (Gonbes GBS-8220) http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Arcade-RGBS-C...mZ310129709475 Review: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3508.0 It is supposed to be 24bit, not sure if it changes 50Hz to 60Hz. Has separate inputs for RGBS, RGBHV, Component, and outputs to 2 VGA outputs at once. I think theoretically you may be able to use it for 2 amigas at once(connected but not both displayed). Anyway, hope it works. I love it how the reviewer first reviewed the scandoubler on LCD and then complained about softness.

24 March 2009, 17:51	#12
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,479	Much nicer price.... would be good to see what the chip is.

24 March 2009, 20:43	#15
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,929	The vertical lines are probably a result of the panel's scaler.

24 March 2009, 22:56	#16
rkauer I hate potatos and shirts Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sao Leopoldo / Brazil Age: 58 Posts: 3,482	Indeed! Even LCD TV who accepts 15kHz directly make scaling and show vertical "ghost" stripes.

25 March 2009, 03:01	#17
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	One should always check a scandoubler's performance on a decent CRT while paying attention to the horizontal and vertical scanrates. Otherwise LCD may cover up some of the faults or make its own faults (and then when you go to a different LCD it doesn't work properly). Hence why I was amused at the tester in the link complaining about softness on the LCD and implying it was due to the scandoubler. Also, it is difficult to say which ones are better as one person's perfect display is another person's rubbish display. The XRGB2 and/or XRGB2+ are said to be the best but you can't get them anymore. Don't know how good the XRGB3 is. Don't even know if they mainain 50Hz in their output. I won't be testing my afore-mentioned PCB board anytime soon as other stuff taking precendence and it's too much effort to link the Amiga's RGB to the RGBS input (The VGA input may not accept 15KHz).

25 March 2009, 04:25	#19
rkauer I hate potatos and shirts Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sao Leopoldo / Brazil Age: 58 Posts: 3,482	Yes, please, do that!

25 March 2009, 05:22	#20
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	The reason that my LCD gives vertical stripes on some non-standard Amiga modes is because it detects the gfx mode as f.ex. 640x480 when it should have detected it is 720x576. So some pixels are missed (not really detectable as easily on lores games but medres workbench you can tell) which squashes the picture and results in vertical stripes. I think an indivision with black border set to on may get rid of this problem for a few modes. If receiving vertical stripes you should check your monitor's menu to see what gfx mode it has detected and scaled the input to compared with what it should have detected. Of course with CRTs you don't have these problems of "resolution detection".

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