my own pet project: Abime MapMaker

[Marcuz]

very interesting read, thanks!

[Zetr0]

personally through experience, Alpha testing tests core components and functionality independently where as Beta testing tests a combined range of components for instance testing a 3d engine is an alpha and then testing level design within that engine would be a beta.

[gimbal]

Hm yes, if you would use the rational unified process / Object Oriented Analysis & Design then you could do a beta test on each milestone. It's a bit of an open ended description now that I think about it.

[gimbal]

question for you guys, what should I do:

The situation is that currently you can create a workspace, a map and a floor, three seperate steps (a floor is added to a map, a map is added to a workspace).

Now when you create a new map you most likely also want to create a floor. Should I:

1) automatically popup the new floor window after you create a map? Creating a map consists of inputting a name and initial dimensions in cells.

2) embed the floor creation into the create map window (next to a seperate window which is used to add additional floors to a map). Creating a floor consists of inputting a name and choosing the icon set to use for that floor.

3) do nothing, the user must select create map / create floor manually from the menu (the way it is now)


Note that embedding the map and floor creation into the create workspace window is not possible (or feasible is a better word, anything is possible) because you cannot create a floor before you created a new icon set or imported an existing one into the workspace.

What do you guys think? Personally I think option 3 is a bit annoying because it takes an extra step before you can start drawing. I think option 1 is the cleanest because then there is still only one way in the GUI to create a floor.

[Zetr0]

this floor, is it static for every cell you populate or can it be changed variably?

i am thinking graphically here, for instance a stomp througha forest then into a temple ?

if it is variable then 1 should be fine, as a designer would sure pick the most he/she would use on that level. however if its static... hmmm

[Marcuz]

let me understand: option 1) when you say the map is created by adding a name and defining the cell number, is this before starting to draw? if so, let's say you are exploring an unknown dungeon and you do not know the absolute position of your entry point, you don't know then for sure how big the map is. so is it resizable during work, like: add/subtract x to the right, left, up or/and down or it is even croppable?
i'm sorry if i'm not getting the point here, buy a screenshot would help me.

[gimbal]

Marco:

INITIAL size, it is very possible to resize a map (when I implement the feature in the GUI).

Both:

I'm obviously not expressing myself clearly My question has nothing to do with how one draws a floor, I merely want to know what steps a user should take when creating a new map. Currently you create a new workspace (or open an existing one of course), then you select 'create map' from the menu and when you have done that you select 'create floor' from the menu. That's option 3, in my opinion the most user unfriendly option because it takes 3 menu actions before you get to draw your floor.

I pose two alternative methods:

1) after creating a map automatically popup the 'create floor' window so the user can create the initial floor without having to click on a menu item yet again

or

2) embed the 'create floor' window logic into the 'create map' window so that the user can instantly create an initial floor without having to go through another popup window.


Creating a floor is a seperate step from creating a map because a single map can consist of several floors (think captive). But when you create a new map I'd say you also instantly want to create a new floor for that map, else you have nothing to draw on. If you agree, which of the two options would be the best option? I'm leaning towards option 1) myself because then there is only one window that deals with creating a floor in stead of two.

[Marcuz]

now i get it. by floor i thought you meant the actual different colour tiles, like the fill in of a map. i would go with the 2nd possibility

[gimbal]

Great, that's one who disagrees with me Anyone else agree with Marco?

[Zetr0]

hmmm, (ponders), you know big G i do see your dilema....

hmmm, there is another option that you haven`t listed.....

why not use a yes / no dialog to create floor popup after the selection of the menu option to create-map?

sorta like

File>>New>>CreateMap

*pop* do you wish to start with floor tiles? Y/N ( yay or nay boxes )

but its tricky, as it kinda depeneds on your design flow. you could have a radial / tick box which either remembers preference or ignores the dialog box for any further createmap requests.. or both even..

but i do sympathize... the biggest problem about GUI programming is that it can make perfect sense to us coders but to the user..... welll.... you know all to well what i am on about....

still i am impressed with your work

[gimbal]

Your idea is something like option 1), which also gives you the option to create a floor. You can always press cancel. I can't create a floor without the user inputting a floorname because you don't save an individual floor: you only save the entire map.

In regular apps you will always see both a save and a save as button. My app doesn't have that, because not only is everything managed within the application directory but you also provide names right from the start, in stead of when you hit save/save as. So I don't need a save as function because I already have all the information I need. I find my solution a lot more user friendly and it provides for an additional feature: the option to easily create backups of your work. Plus that you don't need to hunt around for workspaces with a file dialog, I can simply present to you a list of workspaces and you can choose one.

*puts backup feature on the should have list*

Note: the app provides functions to rename a workspace, map or floor.

[Zetr0]

what about auto backup feature?

will it be possible to <<import>> elements form other workspaces?

say i have done a wicked cool dungeon level for bardstale and i wanna put it into eob with some extra stuffs like command / event stacking with extra bells and whistles, diff monsters, traps, secrets etc but essentially the orginal initial layout?

hmmm i shall call it EOB return to Kayran Dungeon... and bardstaleVI escape from Kayran Dungeon..

[Marcuz]

now that you mention, it would be cool if there would be interoperability with different map programs: like, if someone is going to make a map editor for to use in specific games, like EoB and would like to import in it the map done with this program. or something like this. after all: why to stop at hacking and customizing EoB when there are also other succulent rpg for amiga and pc around? hint... Black Crypt? hehehehe...

[gimbal]

what about auto backup feature?

Anything is possible The hard part is going to be how to handle putting a backup back. Probably by letting the user select which maps to extract from the backup and inject into the matching workspace, replacing any maps with the same name.

will it be possible to <<import>> elements form other workspaces?

That is a no-brainer, it's a matter of copying some stuff from workspace A to workspace B. Currently it is already possible to import the icons. In the end each floor will have several layers, intended to be able to add monsters and stuff on top of the actual physical floor. So you could just remove the layers will the old monsters/traps/etc. (or perhaps I can include the option to simply not import those layers) and then add new layers with the new content.

if someone is going to make a map editor for to use in specific games, like EoB and would like to import in it the map done with this program

The app itself is going to contain as much generic RPG stuff as possible, and will in the end allow you to bind specific information to an icon (through plugins) that can be saved along into the XML map format (and you can then convert this into anything you want). Hopefully it will be possible to do everything you may want for simple dungeon romp style RPG's.


I'm currently wrapping up icon set creation and editing. With it you can:

- create a new icon set
- add icons to an existing icon set
- remove icons
- replace icons on the fly (so an icon that is already used can be replaced with a new one and that icon is then injected into every cell where the old icon was used).

And on the could have list is the ability to create your own icons from within the map editor. But that is for much later, when the primary functions of the app are all implemented.

This feature is not as simple as you may think. Especially because editing an icon set that is already in use is very error-prone: if you remove an icon that is used in a hundred floors then you are going to lose a lot of work: not something that is allowed to happen. So you may not remove icons that are in use, but then you must have the ability to replace them with a new one... But what if you want to replace that specific icon in the current map, but NOT in all the other maps that it is used...

[gimbal]

Okay, icon set creating / editing is finished (took me some time, but I used a few vacation days to NOT sit behind my computer for a change...). On to being able to create multiple layers in a floor. I'm aiming at doing something very similar to photoshop where you can turn different layers on and off.

I even discovered a new must have: "gui must support multiple languages". Not a very difficult one to implement luckily.

And another should have: "implement help system". The app is shaping up such that each window has multiple buttons and input fields, it would be nice if there was an online help to explain all the fields. Saves me from having to write a manual as well, I'll just use the internal help for that.

[Zetr0]

for the wont of having your arms full Gimbal, it seems your work never endeth'! lol.

Some damn good work my friend. i look forward to help getting it in linking with other maps / games etc.

[gimbal]

Some damn good work my friend

He, I'll release the first alpha as soon as I implement the erase function and the multiple layers, only then you can judge if I did damn good work

I've been updating the todo list but not the screenshot, so check the top post for the current version. Not much changed in the main window yet (except that now it lists the workspace name in the title bar ("wimpie" in this case, don't ask me how I came up with it because nonsense just comes natural to me) and a map name/floor name in the status bar). I'd create screenshots of the different management windows but, well, they are not very interesting

[gimbal]

For those of you that think this little project is dead: no way

Its just that during the summer vacation I always for some reason lose all interest in programming for a few weeks and I do nothing else but play games like all the time (had a brief Dungeon Siege 2 addiction there). This summer was no different, and next summer will most likely not be any different also.

But now the vacation is over and the itch has returned! First task at hand: get to learn the code again :s Second task at hand: figure out what needs to be fixed. Luckily I documented it all.

[gimbal]

Gah! And the first thing I'm changing is the icon sets: screw zip files, I'm turning them into a directory of images. That makes it so much easier to manage them and it will save so much redundant code... This is one of those "what on earth was I thinking?" moments.

[keropi]

u know what would really rock??? a pocket pc version of the map maker... so u can have it right next to u, without needing a 2nd pc...