15 February 2021, 19:51 | #481 | |
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However, I still think that it makes sense to expand the Amiga 500 with things like extra RAM, IDE, scandoubler, SD-card, etc. It just makes it easier to use things like WHDload or exchanging software with a PC. A fast CPU is less useful imho (says the one that build an A3660 for his A3000 ) |
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15 February 2021, 20:20 | #482 |
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Really i know that Doom like games had a strong appeal many years ago and i used and brought classic accelerators cards because really need to play with them. Today is different. If i really want to play with Doom like i not use Amiga. Amiga i love only classic vintage game that run on standard Amiga.
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15 February 2021, 20:51 | #483 | |
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But now even the fastest Amiga is not enough to run a modern HTML5 web browser for example. The only reason I built the A3660 was to restore my computer to its "back in the day" specs. Still, for me the Amiga hobby is all about fun and projects like this are just that: fun! For running new and exciting games, demos and other software a modestly expanded A500 is all you need though. |
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15 February 2021, 21:00 | #484 |
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Honestly, I don't see the point.
Of course there's very little going on on the software and game market for the Amiga these days. And that's really sad. For instance, I'd really like to see some Lukas Arts style adventures again. On the other hand, the Amiga has always been a very expandable system. Combined with todays possibilities from the maker scene, this made and makes a whole lot of things possible that simply didn't exist back in the day. Tinkering with the Amiga's hardware made me understand how computers work internally, how their parts are divided into functional groups and how these groups interact with one another to form a whole. Creating new hardware for it doesn't take anything away from software development. I don't think that people who develop hardware would instead write great software. The problem is that a great software usually requires a whole team of people: Programmers, artists, composers, writers. That's really hard to achieve without the infrastructure of a company. A good piece of hardware, on the other hand, is reasonably easy to develop by a single person. In fact, I know many good hardware projects driven by one or two people but essentially not one single astonishing game created by someone on his own... |
15 February 2021, 22:01 | #485 |
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That's... all a bit off topic.
@mkstr, yes I do think there is still a place for this accelerator. I did like your initial approach of using a standard FPGA board, but a custom board for A1200/etc sounds necessary from what you've been saying. |
15 February 2021, 22:56 | #486 |
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There are demand for this. If price is about 140-150€ this will sell very well.
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15 February 2021, 23:25 | #487 |
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16 February 2021, 06:41 | #488 |
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@zipper - acorn archimedes with raspberry pi You can also buy modern pc system on an isa card, insert to old 386 system, hook kb, mouse, vga, storage to it and use mainboard as power supply alone... lol Home amiga never was expandable system. All it had was either trapdoor memory (and side expansion) or trapdoor memory + turbo. It is quite amazing so many products were developed over years but that's mostly because there were no new models. When pc users happily swapped their isa and vlb 486 machines to pci & pentium world amiga users were didn't even have PCI (yet) and were using workarounds to get things like new graphics modes using chipset (graffiti cards for ECS) or soundcards using clockport. That's also the reason why you wouldn't see 486 machine equipped with pentium III while there were plenty of Amiga 1200 using 060+603e duo. It's not because Amiga expandability was better. It's because there was no other choice.
What many ppl have to yet realize - Amiga is slow. It's very, very slow. How turbo card works? Well they do have local memory which allows way faster than original CPU retain it's speed. Any program running inside that local memory is going to execute fast. But. Every access to amiga peripherals is basically just as slow as with original CPU. That's also a reason why - during development of new turbo cards - companies begun to install faster peripherals onboard turbo card to use it's speed to the fullest. That's why mid 90s turbo had SCSI controller (faster than native) and in late 90s even fast local bus for expansions (by default - graphic card but soon enough - pci slots). That's because amiga resources were lagging far behind CPUs available at the time. So there's little benefit of having 040@40MHz (or better) CPU paired up with ECS alone and PIO0 IDE controller. It's just things are. So either super ultra powerful CPU with subsystem allowing super fast peripherals or just dirt cheap expansion with essentials. Last edited by Promilus; 16 February 2021 at 06:58. |
18 February 2021, 23:27 | #489 | |||||
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Yuk. I recently bought an Archimedes A3000 with an internal 120MB 2.5" IDE hard drive and fully expanded to 4MB RAM. What a disappointment! The 8MHz ARM processor is supposed to be much faster than a 68000 but doesn't feel like it, and it chews up memory twice as fast. The hard drive is dog slow, the GUI is non-intuitive, the OS is not multitasking, and you have to manually tell it how much memory to allocate for graphics etc. It has a 4096 color palette and up to 256 colors on screen, but only 16 colors can be freely chosen. Apart from one sprite it has no advanced graphics hardware - just a dumb frame buffer. The audio specs look good until you realize that all channels are stuck at the same sample rate. It has a 720k 3.5" floppy (less storage per disk than the Amiga), but no way to add more drives for copying disks etc. The whole thing seems clunky and full of strange quirks and compromises.
I have heard that hardware expansions such as faster CPUs and Ethernet cards are available for the Archimedes, but can't find any for sale (not that I would buy them anyway - no point trying to polish a turd). Compare that to my A600 with Vampire accelerator. CPU equivalent to a Pentium 120 or higher but running memory efficient 68k code, 128MB of super-fast RAM, high resolution HDMI graphics with 24 million colors as well as the Amiga ECS chpset, superior multitasking OS, PCMCIA port which takes standard Ethernet and CF cards etc. The A600 was supposed to be the least expandable Amiga, but it didn't take long for hardware developers to get around that. My current machine is more powerful and much cheaper than the Amiga 3000 system with 50MHz 060 and RTG etc. that I used to have, and it's a joy to use. Quote:
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The A1000 and A500 sensibly have a socketed 68000, with enough room around it to install a large internal expansion card. A Vampired A500 is quite a beast, but just adding a fast CPU, RAM and IDE port is well worthwhile. I am currently building a TF530 with 50MHz 030 that will make my A500 twice as powerful as my A3000 was when I bought it in 1991, for less than NZ$200. Now that sophisticated expansions can be made cheaply and easily by hobbyists, we are seeing a renaissance of DIY designs that are pushing the Amiga well beyond what was ever thought possible. And this just the beginning. With FPGAs, fast cheap MCUs and dev boards etc., there really is no limit to what we can achieve today - and no limit to the fun we can have doing it! Quote:
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Meanwhile new generation Amigas were also being produced. So Amiga users did have a choice, but many stuck with their existing machines because they didn't need to upgrade. I put a 50MHz accelerator card and 1GB hard drive in my A1200 in the 1990s, and didn't do anything more to it until a few years ago when I upgraded the 16MB SIMM to 32MB. I expect that to be sufficient for a long time to come. I could buy an NG Amiga if I wanted, but why would I want to? Quote:
But strangely I can turn on my A1200 and be downloading the latest files from Aminet and reading posts here before my 2.8GHz dual-core PC has even booted into Windows (and then takes another minute to see the network and run Firefox). I never have to wait for my Amiga to clean up virtual memory (which sometimes takes minutes on my PC), and when I am finished with it I just turn it off! Depending on that you are are doing with it, an Amiga can be plenty fast enough. |
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19 February 2021, 07:12 | #490 | ||||||||||
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@Bruce - well CISC wasn't only "complex ISA" but also "compact binary". It is quite obvious (or at least was back then) that CISC produced code better suited for low memory systems. That's also a reason why with memory constrained systems (microcontrollers) ARM introduced special ISA Thumb to be a more compact one with minimal performance penalty. But ... no, 2D capabilities of Archimedes weren't exactly perfect but CPU itself - yes, it was fairly powerful. And it shows in those silly pseudo 3D games which run quite nicely on ARM and choked on Amiga.
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So new possibilities of Amiga hardware are not through extraordinary capabilities other hw didn't have but rather stubbornness of their owners and better, cheaper development tools for programmable logic. So please do not treat Amiga like it is better because you can put FPGA-based SoC on top of the CPU ... reality check - you could've done that with many more but it was pointless to do so. Quote:
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Nope. No 486 motherboard could take Pentium CPU. Some could take PentiumOverdrive CPU which was basically castrated Pentium to match 486 front bus. That's typical "turbo" enhancement of PC since it was pointless to do more. With that regard 386 owners had the ability to get 486DLC/SLC and DxR chips from Cyrix/Texas which were also turbo-like enhancements. And fairly popular at the time (considering units sold) but overall not that popular and considered being pointless attempt to breathe a new life to old units. Something we do even now and do not consider it pointless - but exactly because we do not have other choice in that matter. There are no new amiga in classic line to jump into. And the best of ppc line are extremely expensive with subpar performance. Quote:
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19 February 2021, 09:57 | #491 | ||||||||||||||
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In the 1990's I owned a computer shop and did commercial Amiga development. As with all hobbies, doing it for profit tends to distort your outlook and kill the enjoyment. The fact that Amigas are now officially retro takes the pressure off and allows me to fully explore their character and potential. No having to push stuff out as soon as possible to beat the changing market, no need to compete with PCs, no concerns about whether it is profitable or not - just pure fun! That's what makes life worth living. Quote:
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Then there are those to whom the computer itself is a 'game', with the 'play' being tuning it to their tastes. Those of us who are doing that to our Amigas don't care what some some other architecture may be capable of - it's irrelevant, just like a chess player doesn't care what new hull designs are being used in the latest racing yachts. Quote:
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I had a 2MB expansion and self-built hard drive interface attached to my A1000 and was quite happy with it for many years (until somebody stole it). I bought an A3000 for development to speed up assembling code, then discovered that Hisoft Devpac was 5 times faster than the assembler I was using so I didn't actually need the A3000! Quote:
I also have an A500 today that mostly gets used just for games. Being a stock 1MB machine with KS1.3 makes it more compatible and simpler to use. Quote:
On the hardware side it's a similar nightmare. My PC started randomly crashing a month back, due to burst caps on the motherboard (which I replaced) and then faulty RAM. I have a bag full of DIMMs which are all different and only work in certain motherboards, not including mine! Luckily I found a compatible pair in another PC that I got for free from a local computer shop. Pcie4, nvme bla bla - so many acronyms I have lost count and have no interest in learning about. It was bad enough back in the 90's with different slots, incompatible SIMMs, hard drives that wouldn't work in some machines because they had 3.3V logic etc. I'm too old for that crap. PC hardware and software is so complex today there's no way a normal person can fully understand it, so we are forced to just being monkeys using what we are given. More and more hobbyists are moving from the PC to platforms like Arduino and Raspberry Pi where they can get down to the metal like we are used to on the Amiga. Quote:
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At the time we were disappointed and demoralized by it, but in the long run it was a good thing. If Commodore had survived we would have been subjected to the same crap as PC and Mac owners, endless 'upgrades' that got further and further way from what we loved. By today the Amiga would have from indistinguishable from a PC clone and just as inaccessible. Quote:
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19 February 2021, 11:25 | #492 | ||||||
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To not spam in original topic much more I think you misunderstood what I was writing about in the first place. A500, A600, A1200 were designed as a short-term computers with just a handful of expansions (being either not-entirely zorro II, not entirely zorro III or not entirely pcmcia). Those computers were supposed to be obsolete, replaced by newer ones which never came. That's the only difference. There were no hardware superiority which allows A600 to get pentium-class processor now. It's not hardware based possibility. It's community based. Atari community forked to Coldfire at some point with only slightly better fate than infamous Dragon. Amiga lives through community alone. Just like Atari, just like BBC, just like C64, Spectrum and so on. There is nothing more special than community right here. Not logo, not hardware, not OS.
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If I still had my C64 I'd probably hack it as well. And just because I had several PCs and they shared some kind of continuity I wouldn't go back to the first one to modify it. That being said - I modified plenty of embedded PCs with e.g. SSD IDE drives as a refurbish service with great results. Not many remember SSD aren't that new tech and it was already present in mid 90s as Disk on Module flash drive. |
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20 February 2021, 21:10 | #493 | |||
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That covers the period when the Amiga was produced, but it didn't stop there for PCs. The pace of hardware development meant that no computer could expect to be expandable very far into the future, and eventually manufacturers stopped even trying. The majority of PCs sold today are either laptops or 'all-in-one' machines based on laptop technology, with very limited expansion capabilities. With the possible exception of the A600, Commodore expected all their Amiga models to have a good lifespan, which is why they included an expansion slot even though they didn't need to because everything you needed was already on the motherboard. Just because the bus expansion on each Amiga wasn't all 'entirely the same' as other models doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be expandable for the foreseeable future (and beyond!). The Amiga's PCMCIA port wasn't 'entirely PCMCIA' for the simple reason that the standard hadn't been finalized yet. The main problem with PCMCIA was that PC manufacturers attempted to make it into an ISA bus replacement - which made it harder to ensure compatibility on the Amiga - and many PC implementations did not follow the standard correctly. Quote:
In comparison most PCs expected the CPU to be installed on the motherboard, and when a new CPU type came out a new motherboard would be designed to take it. So-called 'overdrive' chips were a kludge to get faster CPUs into existing motherboards - a tactic that Commodore didn't need to copy because Amigas were always designed to take a faster CPU via bus expansion. Quote:
I also feel the same about the PC. IMO Windows XP did not need to be 'improved' in the way Microsoft did it. If they had just fixed the bugs and polished it a bit I would have bought the next Windows version - but instead they filled it full of eye candy and silly stuff that just gets in the way and takes up more resources - a bit like Amiga OS 3.5. OS 4 and PPC are even further from what I want, which is to make my wonderful classic Amiga an even better version of itself - not a wannabe PC. You say the A500, A600, A1200 were designed as 'short-term' computers. I don't know exactly how long Commodore expected to get out of them, but a common criticism is that they tried to make them last longer than they should have. I feel the opposite - it always annoyed me that just as I got to know a platform it became obsolete. As it turns out, that didn't happen to the Amiga. 25 years later we are still enjoying learning more about it and making it work even better! Last edited by Bruce Abbott; 20 February 2021 at 21:25. |
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21 February 2021, 07:28 | #494 | ||||||
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21 February 2021, 11:32 | #495 | |
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I agree that you can only expand an Amiga so far before it ceases to be an Amiga - Graphics cards are nice but now you can't do copper tricks. Sound cards are nice, but now we're into the early-90s-PC-like realms of latency from mixing and pops if the buffer underruns because of system load. Memory protection and virtual memory are nice - but then you enter the realms of responsiveness being destroyed if the machine decides to page out part of a program that's required for its UI to respond. (A couple of weeks ago I made the mistake of opening a Downloads folder on my Linux box, forgetting that I'd downloaded a *huge* JPEG. The machine decided to make a thumbnail for it; It took me nearly 5 minutes to get that machine back under control. That should not be possible in 2021.) In a vague attempt to get back on topic... I love that there's so much development happening for these machines: the mega-fast ARM efforts are exciting and interesting in their own right - and I still find myself intrigued by the possibilities of running ARM code natively from AmigaOS - a bit like PowerUP and WarpOS from back in the day. But I also think a fast TG68k-based device will hit the sweet-spot between "Authentic Amiga Experience" and "Why not just use JIT emulation on a PC"? |
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21 February 2021, 12:52 | #496 |
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@robinsonb5 - ARM code running on AmigaOS 3 is something most ZZ9000 users are trying to get. Either Cyclone V SE or Zynq7k could be used to host 68k softcore along with arm hard processors. Would it be better integration of ARM than in form of RTG card? Basically yes but regardless of how integrated such SoC would be there's problem with caching data from RAM on heterogenous CPU architectures and context switching might kill off performance gains. I do think it's something worth pursing though but that's not something one developer can achieve in a free time, right? Since design is pretty much complete and waiting for manufacturing I think there's no point in creating wishlist now. On the other hand should there be some improvements to TG68 afterwards I'd love them to be implemented to already sold units as well.
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21 February 2021, 14:04 | #497 |
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I'd just like to see _someone_ release one of these TG68 based FPGA systems.
Or using their own core, but from my perspective preferrably TG68 based so that people can modify it. But just release it. That's where they all seem to fall down. |
21 February 2021, 14:32 | #498 |
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21 February 2021, 16:38 | #499 |
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@AJCopland - it's "quite simple"
1. Get QMTECH Cyclone V development board. 2. Get Vampire source code (iirc that' version 0.1), available as packed project on majsta.com 3. Buy few buffers with voltage level translations capabilities 4. Install Quartus and import project. 5. Connect unused FPGA pins with 68k pins using voltage level translators. 6. Modify source verilog to match changes (different FPGA, different pins) 7. Synthesize and upload 8. Maybe... you'll get working Vampire V1-like TG68k based turbo If not? try, try, try again. Or if you are afraid then... wait patiently. Patience is a virtue basically... mandatory in amiga community. |
21 February 2021, 17:36 | #500 | ||||
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* Establishing a way of sharing memory between the two CPUs.] * Figuring out synchronisation primitives so that ARM code can be launched and caches can be cleared at the right time. * Packaging ARM code on the Amiga side so that it can be loaded and relocated if necessary. (Does ARM require any relocations that aren't available within Amiga hunk format, for instance.) Quote:
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