Which game you think mainly represents the Amiga?

[Bren McGuire]

you literally just said "there are worse" admitting Superfrog is also bad so again if that is what represents the Amiga I agree if you mean it was a failed platform that couldn't compete with games consoles when it tried to get to par technical-wise

i however choose to think of the Amiga as a platform that created a shift in home computer creativity and sparked ingenious new ideas like Lemmings maybe it isn't the best game but it definitely sums up all these fringe creative qualities as Megalomaniac has put more eloquently than I ever could

Originally Posted by meynaf

Frankly, no. It is good game overall, there is much worse than that one.
Platform games are representative of the miggy, there are so many of them, and this one is well known among them.
But people here seem to be wanting to elect the best game instead of the most representative...

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Bren McGuire

you literally just said "there are worse" admitting Superfrog is also bad so again if that is what represents the Amiga I agree if you mean it was a failed platform that couldn't compete with games consoles when it tried to get to par technical-wise

You seem to have a personal history against that one.
By 'worse' i meant 'not as good'. Which didn't mean it was bad, especially after having said it was a good game overall. Sorry, i'm not native english speaker.
It is perhaps not good by todays standards, but it was when it came out.
Game consoles didn't have much better either as platformers (by that time).
Also consider the required configuration to run the same game on a peecee.

And again, a game that is representative is one that (nearly) everyone knows.

Originally Posted by Bren McGuire

i however choose to think of the Amiga as a platform that created a shift in home computer creativity and sparked ingenious new ideas like Lemmings maybe it isn't the best game but it definitely sums up all these fringe creative qualities as Megalomaniac has put more eloquently than I ever could

Lemmings exists on so many platforms it cannot be representative of a single one.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Lemmings exists on so many platforms it cannot be representative of a single one.

I don’t agree with that, in hindsight it was ported to many platforms, at the time Lemmings was significantly an Amiga game and sold many machines.

By the same context its like saying Street Fighter II doesn’t represent the SNES, when it was one of the best selling games on the platform, and i hazard a guess it sold way more SNES machines than Mario World did.

Multi-platform games can represent a platform imo, GTA, Wipeout, Ridge Racer all had ports, but can easily be chosen in the same context imo.

[drHirudo]

Back in 1993-1994 I was visiting a computer club with many Amigas, also PCs and some gaming consoles like Super Nintendo (SNES) and Sega Mega Drive. They even had 3D0 at the time.
The PCs were running mostly Doom and Wolfenstein 3D. The Sega Mega Drive - Street Fighter and Sonic. The Super Nintendo - Super Mario. All the Amigas had only one game played and it was...



Sensible Soccer!

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

I don’t agree with that, in hindsight it was ported to many platforms, at the time Lemmings was significantly an Amiga game and sold many machines.

By the same context its like saying Street Fighter II doesn’t represent the SNES, when it was one of the best selling games on the platform, and i hazard a guess it sold way more SNES machines than Mario World did.

Multi-platform games can represent a platform imo, GTA, Wipeout, Ridge Racer all had ports, but can easily be chosen in the same context imo.

Valid point, but that still doesn't make Lemmings representative of the miggy. It has had a broader success than that. OTOH, SF2 on other platforms wasn't exactly a hit.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Valid point, but that still doesn't make Lemmings representative of the miggy. It has had a broader success than that. OTOH, SF2 on other platforms wasn't exactly a hit.

Interested to hear what game you think then, other suggestions like SOTB, Zool and Sensible Soccer all had ports too, and picking an exclusive game i.e Lionheart doesn’t always mean it represents the Amiga well, in alot of cases it sold badly meant nobody wanted to buy the rights to port it, and plenty of casual Amiga users haven’t heard of it before.

Edit: oh i see you put Superfrog in an earlier post, certainly a contender, although ported to PC as well, and being after the 91/92 Amiga height may have past a number early leavers/late adaptors minds.

[CCCP alert]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

I don’t agree with that, in hindsight it was ported to many platforms, at the time Lemmings was significantly an Amiga game and sold many machines.

By the same context its like saying Street Fighter II doesn’t represent the SNES, when it was one of the best selling games on the platform, and i hazard a guess it sold way more SNES machines than Mario World did.

Multi-platform games can represent a platform imo, GTA, Wipeout, Ridge Racer all had ports, but can easily be chosen in the same context imo.

I agree Lemmings is immediately identifiable with the Amiga BUT looking at gameplay of it on YT I presume wouldn't look any different on any computer/console with audio DACS + 32 colour screenmode. Could you tell the Archimedes/SNES ports from the Amiga ones if you only see emulator capture video? Doubt it.

Usually you can tell different versions of multiformat games, but the technical quality of Lemmings is not far above C/Blitz BASIC quality so in this case it's not going to be like PC+Saturn vs PS1 Wipeout with/without transparency effects and completely different soundtrack, which is what makes Wipeout "a PS1 game".

With SF2 Nintendo got a 12 month exclusive for the first release and Nintendo made it into a bundle because the SNES was selling very poorly in the EU due to piss poor arcade games like sloooooow shmups and other problems. Thing is the first SF2 (Champion Edition) game for Megadrive was about 5x faster than the SNES port, looked just as nice, sounded just fine on my original early mk1 console without buggered cost reduced motherboard. SNES is a slow console, SF2 CE on MD wipes the floor with that original SNES port, plus the Sega official SF2 pads are far superior to the dumb idiot 'skittles' fire button design of the SNES pad too. SF2 at home = SF2 CE on Sega if you actually played it in the arcades. The SNES original version was just a marketing scoop that worked, so for my SNES SF2 falls into the same category as Amiga Lemmings, underwhelming game for the hardware technically in both cases IMO. On your average crapola dirt cheap 14" blur-tastic RF input based CRT TV kids used with both consoles it looks the same in pause mode too pretty much.

[Megalomaniac]

What technical improvements would you make to Amiga Lemmings to improve it as a gameplay experience then? Consoles generally didn't see such original, genre-inventing characterisation-packed multi-challenging games - not to mention that you can only play it Lemmings at its best on a mouse. Not every game has to be pushing the technical limits in order to be a killer app - it was six months before any other version, and the console versions were released nearly 2 years later - not long before Amiga Lemmings 2, actually.

Tough to say whether Shadow of the Beast or Lemmings sold more Amigas, but certainly at the time I was getting an Amiga I saw it as the machine with the best and most varied range of games, not necessarily the one with the most technically advanced games. The SNES, rather like the C64, was either great or terrible at most types of games - if the custom hardware was no use for your design there were less raw power to fall back on.

Also, compare SFII on a SNES with a decent TV to on a Megadrive 2 with "buggered cost reduced motherboard" as you put it, which was probably what most people played SFIISCE on, is there an audiovisual difference then? Also, "the dumb idiot 'skittles' fire button design" of the SNES is iconic, and I've never heard anyone complain about it before.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by CCCP alert

I agree Lemmings is immediately identifiable with the Amiga BUT looking at gameplay of it on YT I presume wouldn't look any different on any computer/console with audio DACS + 32 colour screenmode. Could you tell the Archimedes/SNES ports from the Amiga ones if you only see emulator capture video? Doubt it.

Usually you can tell different versions of multiformat games, but the technical quality of Lemmings is not far above C/Blitz BASIC quality so in this case it's not going to be like PC+Saturn vs PS1 Wipeout with/without transparency effects and completely different soundtrack, which is what makes Wipeout "a PS1 game".

With SF2 Nintendo got a 12 month exclusive for the first release and Nintendo made it into a bundle because the SNES was selling very poorly in the EU due to piss poor arcade games like sloooooow shmups and other problems. Thing is the first SF2 (Champion Edition) game for Megadrive was about 5x faster than the SNES port, looked just as nice, sounded just fine on my original early mk1 console without buggered cost reduced motherboard. SNES is a slow console, SF2 CE on MD wipes the floor with that original SNES port, plus the Sega official SF2 pads are far superior to the dumb idiot 'skittles' fire button design of the SNES pad too. SF2 at home = SF2 CE on Sega if you actually played it in the arcades. The SNES original version was just a marketing scoop that worked, so for my SNES SF2 falls into the same category as Amiga Lemmings, underwhelming game for the hardware technically in both cases IMO. On your average crapola dirt cheap 14" blur-tastic RF input based CRT TV kids used with both consoles it looks the same in pause mode too pretty much.

Graphics have nothing todo with making a game represent a system, it really comes down to if its very popular on a particular system, released first or programmed first for it.

Lemmings, Cannon Fodder, Sensible Soccer all look the same on any platform, but could arguably be high contenders for games that represent the Amiga.

The fact the SNES had the best home conversion of SFII and made people buy consoles for, will be more remembered than the latter Sega port they tried to play catch-up with. And to say it was underwhelming, i’m no big fan of the SNES but it was easily THE biggest game of 1992 in the west, the fact Sega had to go chasing Capcom like a madman with chequebook in hand was no coincidence!

[UnnamedCourier]

Amiga Lemmings is by far the best original version as it has the most features (until I think the Windows 95 release which has speed up that came from the arcade version). It's a good choice for what represented the best of the Amiga, an innovative off-beat game that there was nothing else like, before or since, and mostly played terribly on other formats.

Unfortunately the actual most representative games are probably:

Shadow of the Beast
Xenon 2
Great Giana Sisters

These are all poor style-over-substance games that are constantly pushed as being "great" to the extent that the Amiga now has the reputation of being one of the worst videogame systems of all time.

Outside of nostalgic European 40-somethings the Amiga is seen as a laughing stock of "off brand" junk, and the inability for the community to reappraise the games that came out for it in the context of what was going on on other formats at the time (now available for all to see via emulation) has killed it stone dead for any future generations. The system will completely disappear from popular histories of games once this generation of people die off, forever.

[phx]

As it was already mentioned before: I would say it's Turrican (or Turrican 2)!
The first game which exploits nearly all of the Amiga's custom chip capabilities, has great music, nice game play and was made specially for Amiga.

I say this although there were other games I liked more, but Turrican clearly defines the Amiga for me. It represents what its hardware was designed for.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by UnnamedCourier

Unfortunately the actual most representative games are probably:

Shadow of the Beast
Xenon 2
Great Giana Sisters

These are all poor style-over-substance games that are constantly pushed as being "great" to the extent that the Amiga now has the reputation of being one of the worst videogame systems of all time.

Outside of nostalgic European 40-somethings the Amiga is seen as a laughing stock of "off brand" junk, and the inability for the community to reappraise the games that came out for it in the context of what was going on on other formats at the time (now available for all to see via emulation) has killed it stone dead for any future generations. The system will completely disappear from popular histories of games once this generation of people die off, forever.

Bar SOTB, which was made as an Amiga showpiece by Psygnosis, Xenon II is more remembered for the music, alot of Amiga fans don’t enjoy the game so much! And not sure where you grabbed GGS from, it will only be remembered for annoying the heck out of Nintendo and not being an Amiga game of sorts, it was more C64 anyway.

Not sure what people you hang around with for the Amiga to be giving that title! Any videogamer with any respect can see its qualities and faults.

If you hang around dedicated forums for other hardware and people who don’t know any better its easier for them to slag something off or watch some nob on YT doing it rather go and research themselves, way of the world.

As far as Amiga owners not defending it, nonsense! Plenty of people praise and other context be it on FB,TW, YT. Again depends what age demographic people you hang around with, youngsters will always think Harry Potter is the best book, Game of Thrones is the best TV show etc

[CCCP alert]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Graphics have nothing todo with making a game represent a system, it really comes down to if its very popular on a particular system, released first or programmed first for it.

Lemmings, Cannon Fodder, Sensible Soccer all look the same on any platform, but could arguably be high contenders for games that represent the Amiga.

The fact the SNES had the best home conversion of SFII and made people buy consoles for, will be more remembered than the latter Sega port they tried to play catch-up with. And to say it was underwhelming, i’m no big fan of the SNES but it was easily THE biggest game of 1992 in the west, the fact Sega had to go chasing Capcom like a madman with chequebook in hand was no coincidence!

If you are going to quote me then do me the respect of actually reading what I write, I said in the case of SNES or Amiga there are two ways of looking at it. A game is automatically associated with one system regardless of technically how good it is for the host hardware OR it technically represents a system perfectly and therefore no other port of remotely similar quality is possible on rivals.

As for the 'fact' the SNES port is better (inferior SNES controllers, 75% slower game engine, look/sound the same on your average kids £150 low end CRT TV used with RF cabling) or that Sega did a 'catch up' (it's not catch up when you are legally restricted from releasing your own port on a console even if you are the I.P. owner of the arcade).

As I said, in one way the 12 month exclusive SNES port which became a highly lucrative console bundle is forever associated with Nintendo, but for technical ability SF2 CE (not the shitty 2nd SF2 MD game which is a backwards step like Gauntlet 2 vs Gauntlet 1 on the C64) is also associated with the MD console too. I certainly didn't force my opinions as fact, advice you should probably take too

[Megalomaniac]

In fairness, nobody has actually suggested Giana, and Xenon II was only mentioned in an "I don't like it, but some did" kind of way. Personally I think Hybris and Battle Squadron trounce Xenon II in every way except maybe power-ups, including music. Incidentally, Hybris is another game I'd throw into this discussion - I'd say it has more of an arcade-game-in-your-home feel than was possible on other systems.

To me, Nintendo were within their rights to complain about Giana ripping off their IP, and I don't think Giana's even that well made compared to the NES Mario games - I'd rather play Terry's Big Adventure over Giana, it at least has some new ideas such as the inertia and the two distinct weapons to switch between.

Shadow of the Beast unquestionably sold Amigas, it was probably the best looking and sounding home videogame ever at the time, and no other system in existence (even the Megadrive) could have matched it. It's a repetitive and difficult game, but I can see why it has its fans - it would make a huge impression if it was the first 16-bit game you ever saw, and perhaps it made ST owners ask themselves whether they'd bought the right system. Pragmatically I'd say it's between that and Lemmings depending on what you were looking for from an Amiga, and when. They both seem to lead in their respective categories of interpretation. Defender of the Crown strongly implied that a £1300 A1000 could outperform a £600 520T for audiovisuals, Beast arguably proved it once both machines were mass-market affordable (though ST Wrath of the Demon suggests that we overestimate the extent).

By the way, C64 Gauntlet II averages only 0.09 less than Gauntlet I on lemon64, so I await explanation of this implied 'fact' about it being a backward step.

[Amiga Lifestyle]

It took until page 4 before people started arguing so that's pretty impressive.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by CCCP alert

If you are going to quote me then do me the respect of actually reading what I write, I said in the case of SNES or Amiga there are two ways of looking at it. A game is automatically associated with one system regardless of technically how good it is for the host hardware OR it technically represents a system perfectly and therefore no other port of remotely similar quality is possible on rivals.

As for the 'fact' the SNES port is better (inferior SNES controllers, 75% slower game engine, look/sound the same on your average kids £150 low end CRT TV used with RF cabling) or that Sega did a 'catch up' (it's not catch up when you are legally restricted from releasing your own port on a console even if you are the I.P. owner of the arcade).

As I said, in one way the 12 month exclusive SNES port which became a highly lucrative console bundle is forever associated with Nintendo, but for technical ability SF2 CE (not the shitty 2nd SF2 MD game which is a backwards step like Gauntlet 2 vs Gauntlet 1 on the C64) is also associated with the MD console too. I certainly didn't force my opinions as fact, advice you should probably take too

I did read what you said thanks very much, nice of you to check though, but i’m not changing what i replied with as that how i read and still interpreted what you said with still talking about technical abilities.

The SNES version is ‘regarded’ as the best home version, going by reviews of the time, take that as ‘fact’ if you wan’t, but i don’t want to imply it as fact! Either way i’m not talking about CE or any other updates but the plain original on which it was based.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by UnnamedCourier

These are all poor style-over-substance games that are constantly pushed as being "great" to the extent that the Amiga now has the reputation of being one of the worst videogame systems of all time.

Outside of nostalgic European 40-somethings the Amiga is seen as a laughing stock of "off brand" junk, and the inability for the community to reappraise the games that came out for it in the context of what was going on on other formats at the time (now available for all to see via emulation) has killed it stone dead for any future generations. The system will completely disappear from popular histories of games once this generation of people die off, forever.

Yeah the Amiga bashing there is becoming ridiculous. That is a big problem on this board and nobody seems to care about being invaded by trolls making provocating statements and let them alone with that.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by UnnamedCourier

Amiga Lemmings is by far the best original version as it has the most features (until I think the Windows 95 release which has speed up that came from the arcade version). It's a good choice for what represented the best of the Amiga, an innovative off-beat game that there was nothing else like, before or since, and mostly played terribly on other formats.

Unfortunately the actual most representative games are probably:

Shadow of the Beast
Xenon 2
Great Giana Sisters

These are all poor style-over-substance games that are constantly pushed as being "great" to the extent that the Amiga now has the reputation of being one of the worst videogame systems of all time.

Outside of nostalgic European 40-somethings the Amiga is seen as a laughing stock of "off brand" junk, and the inability for the community to reappraise the games that came out for it in the context of what was going on on other formats at the time (now available for all to see via emulation) has killed it stone dead for any future generations. The system will completely disappear from popular histories of games once this generation of people die off, forever.

A lot of leaps of faith there.

Sure, no-one is getting misty eyed over the coin op conversion misery of US Gold and Activision, the Amiga had far more strengths than that and its vast ORIGINAL library of great games will be long remembered.

It started off literal new gaming genres.

Sure, if you want to limit your opinion on what Tiertex and the likes of early Teque/Arc developments could churn out, Sure, I'm sure some laugh at them, though I don't remember many Amiga owners actually celebrating like you think they did when the likes of Strider was released.

It doesn't matter that you personally don't like Beast or Xenon 2 either, because plenty of people did.

For Psygnosis to churn out two further sequels to Beast shows there was a market for them, and do you know what?

Some people like them, and don't consider them style over substance at all.

Fancy that, differing opinions.

The reason why Beast and to a lesser extent Xenon 2 are so pivotal for the Amiga, is because this was the moment that the Amiga ceased to be secondary for developers and in turn Amiga owners.

Now we got a hint of what our machine was capable of when developers bothered.

From that perspective, Beast did its job, it was as much a showcase for some as it was a game for others.

Whilst the Amiga won't be as popular as contemporaries in the future, it won't disappear forever.

The c64 is how old now and STILL thriving.

You do the Amiga a disservice, it's the original games that will ensure the Amiga library survives history not the licenced dreck.

[h0ffman]

Lemmings is representative of the Amiga because it was conceived and built using Amigas. Without the Amiga, Deluxe Paint and a rag time bunch of computer enthusiasts from Dundee the game simply wouldn't exist.

[Bren McGuire]

exactly this!! it is the Amiga mindset that led these people to make Lemmings (originally) on the Amiga glad to see a few people understand this well said h0ffman

Originally Posted by h0ffman

Lemmings is representative of the Amiga because it was conceived and built using Amigas. Without the Amiga, Deluxe Paint and a rag time bunch of computer enthusiasts from Dundee the game simply wouldn't exist.