Timberman type games / relevance on the Amiga etc...

[Anakirob]

I must make it known that the original game Timberman which is available for phones and PC's kind of sucks really. And the only redeeming feature is multiplayer, which seems to be lacking in Amiga and C64 versions anyway.

But the C64 and Amiga version would rate a little better simply by virtue of the limited nature of the systems. but I do have one question about this Amiga version. And that is "Where are the gradients used for the sky?" the ability to do smooth gradients is both a well-known feature of the Amiga chipset and a key design element of Timberman. So failure to include some kind of copper-gradient sky in this game means that I'm not even going to bother looking at the YouTube video, let alone donwload and play what I just know is going to be a crappy game. And without using the capabilities of the Amiga in some way I might even go so far as to call Lumberjack Reloaded mediocre shovelware, There is nothing here that might make me want to see the Amiga version, especially since I actually have the original game on my Steam Machine.

When I was a youth chopping firewood was a chore that I was assigned weekly, and honestly there's very little fun to be had chopping wood.

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Akira

Now it looks like a proper AMiga game. Good job!

I am going to have to respectfully emphatically disagree with you on that point mate.

Peoples standards of what makes a good Amiga game seem to have dropped by several orders of magnitude since the early to mid 90's. I would honestly have trouble giving this game any more than one out of five stars compared to the standards in any major Amiga magazines PD feature.

i do encourage people to develop games for the Amiga, but please when you do, consider "what would Stuart Campbell say about this game?". Somehow I doubt it would be positive.

[Tsak]

@Anakirob: I can't get why such negativity here.
Let me go through your points a bit and share my opinion.

but I do have one question about this Amiga version. And that is "Where are the gradients used for the sky?" the ability to do smooth gradients is both a well-known feature of the Amiga chipset and a key design element of Timberman. So failure to include some kind of copper-gradient sky in this game means that I'm not even going to bother looking at the YouTube video, let alone donwload and play what I just know is going to be a crappy game.

As far as I can tell, not using copper gradients is a purely artistic choice which I completely agree on! Not all games are fit for copper gradients and this one in particular has a very cool and unified artistic style that compliments and justifies current background design. Koyot is one of the leading gfx artists of the scene and this latest work really cements this. I'd say that at least -as far as art style is concerned- this little game is in a much better shape than the vast majority of PD titles of the past.

I am going to have to respectfully emphatically disagree with you on that point mate.

I think what Akira meant here (correct me if I'm wrong) is in comparison to the original c64 port.
Would you really disagree that this new version looks and plays like a real 16-bit game instead of an 8bit one?

This aside, you need to judge the game within the context of what it is. Nobody claimed this is the new revelation or the pinnacle of Amiga gaming, just a cool, fun project made in a month. Surely not the most original idea (you can even call it a blatant rip-off if you like) but -at least- well executed, with attention to detail, fun and addictive! What else can you really expect from a game of that scope?

Peoples standards of what makes a good Amiga game seem to have dropped by several orders of magnitude since the early to mid 90's

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that. But I think there is a very solid explanation here: Game production for Amiga started to dither after '94 and came to a relative stop at around 2000 and up until recent years. That's roughly 10-14 years without any major new game releases (with a couple of exceptions). And that's what I think is driving people's standards down regarding new Amiga games.

You could argue that this is more like a healthy reflex than anything else.
I mean, you -as an Amiga gamer - can always demand for more, better quality, better code, better gfx e.t.c. But in the absence of ANY game production, even the most basic game design that fulfills at least a tiny minimum of those expectations is surely worth supporting. You get my point?

Luckily we're currently on a tide of what it seems to be a new "renaissance" of Amiga game development, so, let's keep this positive

[Anakirob]

I understand why you might get defensive but I might reiterate in words you can understand.

Timberman is a poor concept to begin with.

This is a poor game and even porting it to vintage platforms cannot save it. It is about as much fun as actually chopping firewood, and at least that can keep you warm.

Timberman is better

The Amiga could easily handle Timberman's graphics.

Timberman is not a very good game. So bad that it's worth mentioning twice.

The only good thing about Timberman is multiplayer. Does this version have 4-8 player multiplayer? It could but I'm guessing that it does not.

I in no way wish to discourage Amiga development.

In 2010 I actively sought out David Cruickshank and as a result of the efforts of myself and others he re-released all of his shareware catalogue.

The game Alien Fish Finger saw a modern update which was excellent.

We have recently seen R3D's playable 4 player game Tanks Furry

My upcoming publication features a reasonably positive review of the Tanks Furry boxed CD

AlarCity and Bridge Strike are around the corner and I am looking forward to possibly covering those also.

Not to disparage your efforts as a coder as I'm sure that porting and then improving a C64 game must be a lot of hard work.

But I would much rather play something made in Backbone and that is not something I am about to do.

I much prefer "objective" to "positive". I like facts in my news.

[Anakirob]

I see my own news has been approved so I can say more.

I will most likely recommend that people play the Amiga or C64 remake instead of buying Timberman as I am planning on covering Timberman in a short review and am quite familiar with it having played it for a number of hours.

Is that positive enough for you?

Also we generally do not cover free games. And our coverage of the Amiga may be somewhat limited as we are for SteamOS not Amiga. So it's unlikely my opinion of your product will even warrant a mention.

If this were being sold in some way then we wouldn't care much for it, but as it is really we think nothing of this game one way or the other as it is not relevant to us except for the fact that we are critical of the game it is a remake (of a remake) of.

If you want some constructive criticism then 4 or more simultaneous players would be good. If you used the keyboard you could have as many players as can physically get to the keyboard.

[Overflow]

Originally Posted by Anakirob

Timberman is a poor concept to begin with.
I much prefer "objective" to "positive". I like facts in my news.

I could not disagree with you more. I travel alot due to work, and do alot of short breaks inbetween sessions. Just randomly I downloaded Timberman on my iphone, and I found it addictivly frustrating and challenging. It had that "just ONE more try" factor. Then I got home the kids and nephews saw the game. All of them downloaded it on their phones, and the fight was ON. At the end of it, one of my nephews beat my record, and I kept trying to beat it. I never did

My point is; Timberman is a very simple game, but its effective, just like Flappy Bird. Its something you can do instantly, and put down instantly. And it bridged the generational divide. I at 42 enjoyed it. The 10 to 14 years old generation that are used to cinematic level 3d graphics standard on their games ALSO found it very fun.

What is a good game is as subjective as what is a good movie and painting.
Take the last Star Wars movie. 99% of the people I know would rate it 8-10 our of 10. Personally I would rate it 5-6 cause of the incredibly bland dialogue, and lack of depth.

So Timberman is a very fun game (In my subjective opionion).

[Tsak]

Just to be clear, I'm not related to Lumberjack c64 or Lumberjack Reloaded in any way. That would be Cobe and the rest of the guys that helped with it. I'm just sharing my point of view as an Amiga gamer.

In any case trying to be objective is not my point here and of course you are entitled to your opinion whether this is a good game or not. But using harsh derigatory adjectives such as "mediocre shovelware" does not help the discussion and surely it's not the most inspiring thing to say to encourage any creator to improve (which I'm sure you're interested in). This alone.

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Overflow

Then I got home the kids and nephews saw the game. All of them downloaded it on their phones, and the fight was ON. At the end of it, one of my nephews beat my record, and I kept trying to beat it. I never did

...

So Timberman is a very fun game (In my subjective opionion).

I emphaticly agree that it is quite good in multiplayer, and it does work on Android, but not so much if I try to play it with a controller and that's just one of many irritating points about Timberman, which scores somewhere over 6 but under 7 out of 10 largely because of 8-player mode saving it from being a 4.

So while it's not a great score, I don't hate it. But i don't like it much either as should be readily apparent. Maybe I'm just traumatised from unpleasant childhood memories of bringing in the firewood in winter in the rain. But honestly, even chopping virtual wood alone is a tedious task and I might advise the reader to devote some time to some real wood instead as that is much more rewarding.

But might I ask, does Timberman's music not get on your pecs after about 30 seconds?

And again, I might re-iterate I will not be playing this on my Amiga unless it's at least 2 player. But that could be very easily done via the keyboard, and you won't have the frustration of competing against users with a controller better suited to the task as you'd all be using the keyboard. Add a copper sky which changes colours like Fire and Ice and you've turned it into a game which would be BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL and therefore has a reason to exist as something with some merit other than another hobby project destined for obscurity.

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Tsak

But using harsh derigatory adjectives such as "mediocre shovelware" does not help the discussion and surely it's not the most inspiring thing to say to encourage any creator to improve (which I'm sure you're interested in). This alone.

I disagree with this statement also. I can think of many Amiga games which the offensive term applies, and then there are some ports where some kind of improvement has been made and then the term does not.

I am not comparing this to the C64 version of which I have zero experience by the way, but to the actual Timberman which is currently being promoted in the Steam Store, so I believe that my opinion is actually pertinent information to the subject of Timberman as I endured many more hours than I might have otherwise liked to ensure that I have an intimate knowledge of the game.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Akira

I know, but I am saying, the C64 game is based off a mobile game that existed before.
It's not a C64 original.

Could the mobile game have been inspired by this?
[ Show youtube player ]

BTW, those are some good-looking graphics. Good work!

[saimon69]

[rant]I see this level of entitlement in the italian amiga groups too: this people just want to set back the time at 1994 and continue from there as nothing happened.

Sorry is not possible.

Amiga game programming at its finest is an almost lost and forgotten art.
Lot of old devs brought with them the tools of the trade when they left and most of those are lost now, left for the few amateurs to restart to discover everything again.[citating krzyzstof Matys]
Plus those amateurs have real lives and real jobs to bring in so expecting the same level of commitment, productivity and quality as the good'ol days is not an option - at least not on the short term, until better tools and knowledge is on par.
This means smaller projects of course, and more time to do them.

So this is what you have now,like it or not. Rather than discourage people why don't you jump the gorge and start to do something too?[/rant]

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by saimon69

So this is what you have now,like it or not. Rather than discourage people why don't you jump the gorge and start to do something too?[/rant]

I am doing a number of projects so don;t assume that I am simply denigrating independent developers for the Amiga without anything meaningful to contribute myself, have you even looked at the other News items? in a certain publication which I am not going to be so crass as to mention here you will find that i am actually offering a lot of support to amiga.net.pl products for example. I do not like to post details until I have enough to keep my promises, so any announcements you hear from me in regards to any other relevant News post on this board will be words that can be counted on.

Anyway I do believe that I offered some constructive criticism that if implemented would potentially turn this into a good game. How is that destroying the Amiga? How is that viewable as discouraging? It is a fundamentally poor concept and there is opportunity to make the most of the good points and eliminate the bad points. And I have plainly said so.

You sound just like the people who said that Amiga Power were killing the Amiga by continuing to provide honest reviews into the mid-90's only even less relevant. Well I personally prefer objectivity in my evaluations and don't view the Amiga with rose coloured glasses but see it simply as the capable machine that is is for both Art and Gaming. So my opinion is valid as the next Amiga user. And indeed you can expect coverage of the Amiga in some small way even after it is no longer our featured vintage platform.

So if you are going to get all high and mighty with me I suggest you actually read my posts and don't go full Amiga vigilante on me. My criticism is both valid and relevant to this discussion so .... If you don't like criticism then don't look at my magazine. And while your objection to my objective evaluation of what this game is like is duly noted I am standing by my words and will not say that this is a game that I want to play.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Anakirob

"what would Stuart Campbell say about this game?". Somehow I doubt it would be positive.

Stuart Campbell was the biggest nob-jockey ever to review Amiga games, I wouldn't bat an eyelid to whatever bullshit he spouted out!

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Could the mobile game have been inspired by this?
[ Show youtube player ]

BTW, those are some good-looking graphics. Good work!

That is my favourite version of a wood chopping sim so far

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

Stuart Campbell was the biggest nob-jockey ever to review Amiga games, I wouldn't bat an eyelid to whatever bullshit he spouted out!

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but once again I am going to have to politely and respectfully disagree.

If you don't like Stuart Campbell then don't bother with my other project, Simple. Easy. Ok. Stop prodding me and I won't have to keep on repeating my position.

And I might also politely point out the fact that the phrase "constructive ctiticism" appears three times including this last one, all said by me. So without wanting to enter into a long and pointless discussion just think what might that suggest to you about my motives and give me a smegging break ok.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by Anakirob

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but once again I am going to have to politely and respectfully disagree.

If you don't like Stuart Campbell then don't bother with my other project, Simple. Easy. Ok. Stop prodding me and I won't have to keep on repeating my position.

And I might also politely point out the fact that the phrase "constructive ctiticism" appears three times including this last one, all said by me. So without wanting to enter into a long and pointless discussion just think what might that suggest to you about my motives and give me a smegging break ok.

My reply has nothing to do with whatever your project is or your view on the person in question, just my view of him, pure and simple, don't read more into than that!

[Overflow]

Originally Posted by Anakirob

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but once again I am going to have to politely and respectfully disagree.

If you don't like Stuart Campbell then don't bother with my other project, Simple. Easy. Ok. Stop prodding me and I won't have to keep on repeating my position.

And I might also politely point out the fact that the phrase "constructive ctiticism" appears three times including this last one, all said by me. So without wanting to enter into a long and pointless discussion just think what might that suggest to you about my motives and give me a smegging break ok.

You are fully entitled to your opinion regarding any software/hardware, but you have said that you base statements out of cold facts. Thats quite the leap, since taste is SUBJETIVE. You say Timberman SUCKS, and personally I could not disagree more. How are your FACTS and OBJECTIVENESS computing that input from me?
I have no problem with you NOT enjoying that type of game, but dont make flat statements that xyz game is crap unless you want pushback.
I dont give Timberman slack cause its a hobby made game, I just enjoy the simplisity of it.

From my point of view you refuse to take feedback on your style regarding evaluation, just like you critizise developers. Funny how that works.

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Overflow

You say Timberman SUCKS, and personally I could not disagree more. How are your FACTS and OBJECTIVENESS computing that input from me?

From my point of view you refuse to take feedback on your style regarding evaluation, just like you critizise developers. Funny how that works.

Excuse me, but have I even said anything about my publications policy on how it may handle certain criticisms? No, I do not believe that I have, and therefore your "point of view" seems Ill considered as I honestly have made no indication of how WE will be doing things ourselves. I am trying to keep the conversation about Timberman as much as possible but when you challenge MY journalistic integrity by simply assuming that because I am inspired by Stuart Campbell I must therefore be seeking to emulate him in some way.

Well this may be disappointing to some of you, but in the first couple of PDF's you may notice that my reviews tend to have a favourable theme. Although I do not shy away from certain criticisms, the sheer ratio of recommended (7.5+) to not recommended (<7.5) reviews from me is very much inconsistent with any idea that I am mimicking Mr Campbell's style and not instead using my own style. This is largely because as Editor I get the task of assigning who gets to review what, and I have the power to give myself all the fun ones

Now as for any questions about FACTS and OBCETIVITY how about these two statements.

1- I have played many hours of Timberman, both on-line and solo. Many more that i might have otherwise liked.

2-The act of chopping wood is fundamentally chore-like, I can this say from considerable personal experience that playing a lumberjack game is very true to the original concept in that regard

and finally point 3

3-Multiplayer works quite well and is really quite fun to play, it's a shame that the in-game music seems to be a less than 30 second loop.

You say I do not deal in either FACTS or OBJECTIVITY, well I do believe that I have just proven you wrong by using those two very things.

And I might advise that the consumer consider facts 1, 2 & 3 in any dealings you may have with the Timberman game. We are the consumers advocate and do not want anyone to get ripped off by "false positives" in the Steam Store reviews section. Especially from the perspective and gaming sensibilities of the more mature or even dare I say, "oldschool" or even "hardcore" gamer.

And needless to say that if you do have a dim-view of video games reviews written by curmudgeon's such as Stuart Campbell or Jim Sterling then you probably won't like us, while on the other hand if you in fact find these journalists to have a witty and enjoyable style then quite possibly you will enjoy us. Simple, that is all I am saying about my publication in any kind of official statement kind of way, you will just have to wait until 24/032017 if you want something more solid that you can criticise about my project. Anyway...

This is not my actual bottom line for Timberman, but words to the effect of:
"About as much fun as really chopping some real wood" will appear.

and maybe the advice.

"try installing the Android version on your phone instead, as this game is infinitely more suited to that platform than the SteamOS+controller platform which we cover"

And I believe that this is important information for any Steam customer to consider.

[Anakirob]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

My reply has nothing to do with whatever your project is or your view on the person in question, just my view of him, pure and simple, don't read more into than that!

You're cool buddy That is a mature attitude to have and one which I respect.

I was more addressing the general tone that any response to my opinion of Timberman seems to have provoked from some over-protective Amiga games fans.

Well I might just say one more time that I am responsible in some way for at least three Amiga games being released over the last 10 years thanks to my (and others: ) efforts in tracking down David Cruickshank of Skull Army Software. So any idea that I somehow "have it in for independent Amiga developers" is frankly absurd.

As well as the fact that R3D are featured prominently in our issue zero special edition and issue one which is very Amiga centric for a SteamOS magazine.
Although R3D could perhaps be considered more "premium shareware" quality than "full-priced commercial" quality their products are generally viewed in a favourable light by us at The Power Magazine (I believe that is the first time I have mentioned the title of my publication in this thread: ) even when considered in the context of modern games. And we will be saying so with Tanks Furry boxed CD package recieving something like 8.9, or 89 percent in the old money. That's a pretty respectable score when one considers that I am comparing it to what you'd get if you paid the same money for a Steam game.

And one policy we have which is DEFINITELY different to the original AP is that while remaining unbiased we will do what we can to discourage misunderstandings with developers. I have already been having some friendly chats with a number of indie dev's to try and build a relationship of mutual respect even if we need to be critical of their game unlike AP who had a somewhat more antagonistic attitude to Team17, USGold and MicroProse. Even if a developer or publisher consistently produces game which we believe to be poor, like Vulcan in late Amiga Power, then we will encourage a mature and friendly relationship. Like Vulcan and Amiga Power. AP roundly hated their Valhalla games series, but Vulcan were mature and appeared to be happy just to be covered by Amiga Power and even implemented design changes to each of the Valhalla series based on AP's criticisms.

And back to Lumberjack Reloaded itself: so I can justify the existence of this post If just one of the pieces of constructive criticism I offered were implimented, ESPECIALLY BLOODY MULTIPLAYER, then this could actually be a better game than what's on the Steam store for modern PC's I can imagine that because it so easy to play (another POSITIVE point about Timberman form me. And there are one or two more. You will just have to WAIT FOR MY FINAL REVIEW to find out what those are: ) that it might not de difficult to get non-amiga people to play it multiplayer at some kind of a drunken house party with 8 or less people.

And if there were some hack that could be made to allow on-line play between Lumberjack (Amiga, C64) and Timberman (Android, Steam) then the Amiga coding prowess this demonstrates would be at least a little god-like IMO and I would have no choice but to sing their praises. See I AM REALLY TRYING to be positive. I might say it's all you people critical of ME who are being "Negative Nigels" (funnily enough my best friend from highschool is Nigel, but I digress: )

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by Anakirob

So if you are going to get all high and mighty with me I suggest you actually read my posts and don't go full Amiga vigilante on me. My criticism is both valid and relevant to this discussion so .... If you don't like criticism then don't look at my magazine. And while your objection to my objective evaluation of what this game is like is duly noted I am standing by my words and will not say that this is a game that I want to play.

I should not,i know, but i take it a bit personal when someone bash projects am working on (doing the title screen for this); then at the end go and review the game in the magazine but at least be professional and pinpoint stuff you don't like