11 December 2017, 12:11 | #1 |
Amiga warrior
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Port Wolfenstein on Amiga 500 / 1000 OCS
hello everyone, i would love to have a thread to discuss Wolf 3d. And to stay on topic without fighting etc.
Mods, if this is in the wrong area please move it, I don't mean to offend anybody. I have attached the resources for Wolfenstein including all sprites and textures. It is 242 unique colours, I have not reduced the colour yet because I need to select a palette for each level and even for each section of a level. We could do a quick palette change with the Copper when the players walks through a certain door so that it's more suitable for new sprites and textures in that area. Simple with the Copper. There are further discussions about extracting resources here: https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.ph...fcfe42e860cd90 I have read people discussing the calculations of bandwidth required in other threads, and on other sides, and it seems with 2x2 pixel doubling or 1x2 the OCS Amiga is fast enough to achieve 20fps in 64 colours. To achieve this we need 1) Very efficient raycaster engine. See
The purpose of this thread will be to collect any resources we need to make Wolfenstein happen on the Amiga. I will collect links, tutorials, interesting quotes and discussions I get out of other conversations I have read through on this topic, and videos of demo's and games which show the OCS doing everything required to run Wolfenstein, in case some thinks it's not possible. Finally, please give this some attention and thought, and make constructive posts only to help us move forward. I have wanted Wolf on the Amiga for SO long, it simply must be done. Can we please start work on it. I am ready to any graphics work and other roles that I can. Examples of first-person engines on OCS, Amiga 500 / 1000 STOCK
Examples of Wolfenstein 3d and other things of interest running on platforms comparable to A500
Last edited by Miggy4eva; 13 December 2017 at 11:59. |
11 December 2017, 12:25 | #2 |
Thalion Webshrine
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Some of the above videos are not an A500 @ 7(ish)MHz
Take a look at the Atari ST demo done by Ray/TSCCC http://s390174849.online.de/ray.tscc.de/wolf3d.htm |
11 December 2017, 12:49 | #3 |
Total Chaos forever!
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The "Walls" demo on the Aminet does full frame rate by stencil mapping instead of using textures....
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11 December 2017, 13:14 | #4 |
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BSP is probably better than raycasting. IIRC the Atari ST version uses BSP.
These threads pop up from time to time - you even linked one of them. Why would this be different than all other threads? If you want to see a fast wolf engine capable of gameplay then you have to learn to code and do it yourself. Maybe you'll get help after proving that the critical part (rendering+optional chunky2planar) can be done fast enough. |
11 December 2017, 14:27 | #5 | |||
Amiga warrior
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11 December 2017, 17:01 | #6 |
Thalion Webshrine
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Interesting ideas but the optimisations required are such a lot of work. And for what? Kudos?
On the ST platform, accelerators are few and far between, so optimisation is the only good option. Amiga users have their pick of accelerators and can play the AmiWolf_ECS port at full speed on just about any of them. I don't think you'll inspire any Amiga coder to pick up the challenge without taking part yourself and getting down and dirty. |
11 December 2017, 19:40 | #7 |
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If you wanted it for so long, then make it happen, instead of instructing others to make it happen (or trying to convince them somehow).
What are you exactly bringing to the table besides prodding people incessantly about something, and even when you are told "it doens't work", insist on the contrary, even if you do not have the technological knowledge to assert such assumptions? I am 100% sure that if you tried to make it happen, you would realize why it isn't there already, and we would be rid of yet another Amiga fanfiction thread in the Coders forum (a forum for CODERS to discuss CODING). |
12 December 2017, 07:40 | #8 |
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Come on, name ONE thing where a Wolf3D-game would graphically benefit from the A500 hardware? There's no point in discussing these thing unless you have concrete suggestions to put on the table.
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12 December 2017, 07:47 | #9 |
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And as I've said before, I would actually be interested in making a Wolf3D-style game on the A500, but threads like this one are a surefire way to make me lose my interest.
And I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few other coders feel the same way... Last edited by britelite; 12 December 2017 at 07:59. |
12 December 2017, 08:33 | #10 |
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Porting the Mac version would be better than the DOS version because the QuickDraw plotter used non-textured polygons instead of texture mapping. The Amiga polygon plotter is still not fast enough but it would still avoid the chunky to planar conversion.
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12 December 2017, 11:55 | #11 |
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Surely starting with the Apple IIgs source (which is what they did for the AtariST demo) is the way to go.
The source is already configured for a 16-bit host CPU with no FPU but it does have chunky graphics |
12 December 2017, 16:18 | #12 | ||||||
Amiga warrior
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Amiwolf ECS is slow, needs fast machines, not original OCS. I AMMMMM willing to get involved, I can convert graphics and select palettes, and collect information from all other discussions as well as demo examples to show what is possible, and offer ideas to the level I can understand. I am willing to check this thread every day and offer ideas and thoughts to anyone stuck Quote:
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1) 64 colours on screen 2) Higher resolutions. Early versions to have 2x1 pixel doubling, even 2x2, but the goal should be to return to 1x1 with optimisations 3) 20 fps. In other threads the calculations show this is possible 4) Superior sound quality which only the Amiga can deliver |
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12 December 2017, 16:54 | #13 | ||||||||
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So what exactly could you do with the copper and blitter? Please give REAL examples.
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There's a big difference in actually trying to contribute and just going "OMG OMG OMG GIVE ME WOLF3D NOW!!", and you're not someone who's actually contributing with anything sensible. Quote:
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Last edited by britelite; 12 December 2017 at 17:04. |
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12 December 2017, 17:09 | #14 | ||||
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You have been told before that you overstate Amiga capabilities. You have actually been banned from EAB for forcefully pushing this very same discussion in the past. It'll probably only be a matter of time before you revert to namecalling again, because that's how a brat acts when they don't get the thing they demand. I say brat because it's how you've been acting throughout your very short history at EAB. If that bothers you, perhaps you should change your ways. Although it seems to me like the ban had not helped you think things clearly. This very paragraph: Quote:
You got this thread closed before, now you are just reopening it: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=84620&page=5 Anyone reading from that page on who doesn't already know from this threa how far off the target you are can get a clue. Quote:
You've been derailing threads on the coders forum to everyone's detriment, like this one: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...01#post1200901 Nobody here or anywhere is going to do any of this for you. If you are SO SURE you should be able to accomplish it. And if you cannot do it yourself even partly, then stop trying to make others do it. You could at the very least study how the Amiga actually works but you do not. Quote:
Your thread lacks any sort of substance that would assert any of your "goals". Let's help you out here a bit: look at Master484's threads here, he proposes an idea and works for it by LEARNING what an Amiga can or cannot do and MAKING a proof of concept prototype showing some of his ideas. Maybe you can take a hint and learn a thing or two from him. I doubt you will, and you will probably just keep blabbering. |
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12 December 2017, 17:11 | #15 |
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Isn't this a bit like putting a 1970's Ford engine into a modern day Bugatti Veyron, expecting it to produce the same performance and expecting the poor mechanic to achieve it
Not going to happen. You have to be realistic about the capabilities and banging on about it, expecting others to come up with the numbers and not giving some real thought on how you could even achieve it, is kinda a poor start. |
12 December 2017, 17:24 | #16 |
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@Miggy4eva
I have a suggestion, if YOU can come up with good tricks on how to vastly improve rendering speeds on a Wolf3d-style game, I promise to try them out. BUT, links to demos or threads you don't really understand are not acceptable, YOU have to present me with YOUR original ideas. And until you have something to sensible to contribute with, you will not post anything related to this topic. Deal? |
12 December 2017, 20:25 | #17 |
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Honestly, by now i wouldn't even mind it if there was a blanket 3 day auto-ban on mentioning Wolfenstein, Doom or Quake :-D
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13 December 2017, 05:37 | #18 |
Amiga warrior
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This thread is just meant to be a collection of demo's to show simlar things the Amiga has done, and to document all ideas, techniques, brainstorming of how we can do it.
If you want to move it out of the coders forum then fine |
13 December 2017, 05:56 | #19 |
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Thanks for compiling that showcase list. Ambermoon gives me an idea for another project that I otherwise would have missed. And that link to the raycasting engine was an interesting read.
Although I'm not much of a fan of Wolfenstein 3D (which I always misspell "Wolfenstien"), I can't help but wonder if porting to the system you suggest is feasible, so I began with trying to get a hardware timeline: 1982 Intel 286 6mhz (up to 25mhz) 1985 Intel 386 12mhz (up to 40mhz) 1985 Amiga 1000 7mhz 256kb RAM (up to 8.5mb) 1987 Amiga 500 7mhz 512kb RAM (up to 9mb) 1987 Macintosh SE 8mhz 1mb RAM (up to 4mb) 1987 Macintosh II 16mhz 1mb RAM (up to 8mb) 1989 Intel 486 20mhz (up to 100mhz) 1992 Wolfenstien 3D Really difficult to pin-point the average household PC specs in 1992. PCs were very expensive. Around '92, it was common to see PCs being sold with 25mhz and 4mb of ram (Apple doing something similar). I don't mention Commodore here because you're only interested in porting to a stock Amiga 500 / 1000. A stock A500 is just a few kilobytes short of the minimum memory requirements for Wolf3D, so there is a chance it might have to lose a few things. A stock A1000 has only half the memory of the A500 so there is a high possibility of dismissing a lot more, unless you're prepared to make drastic changes to the way the map works, such as partitioning rooms so that when you activate a door, you teleport to the connected room in front of the door you just activated, after loading has finished swapping memory space for different objects, textures, animations etc. When it comes to 3D, any Commodore-Amiga without an Akiko chip (the CD32) has no magic tricks that it can perform to outdo a PC of the same CPU speed. All the 3D calculations and placement of pixels are handled by the Motorola 68k processor. Finding an example of Wolf3D running on a PC of 7mhz to get some idea of performance is difficult. Wolf3D was written to be compatible with a 286. While 286's started at 6mhz in 1982, by the time Wolf3D was written in 1992, it was common to find 286's running at speeds of 10mhz. Although the minimum system requirements for Wolf3D states a 286, a 386 was strongly recommended since those CPUs started at 12mhz and most 286 owners with a CPU speed of 10mhz reported having a "playable" experience of around ~15 frames per second when "full windowed". If you search for the following videos on YouTube (sorry, links I post to YouTube don't appear on this forum) you will see the difference in performance within the range of 5 to 10mhz: ~5mhz "Wolfenstein 3D hacked to work on 8086/8088 CPU" 10mhz "Wolfenstein 3D on 10 MHz 286 computer" So as you may see, the A-500/600/1000/2000 is only 2mhz more than the small windowed "slideshow" example but 3mhz less than the full windowed "playable" example. Of course, to achieve a "full" port, you will need to shift the goal posts to that of the A-1200/3000/4000/CD32. But then we wouldn't see anything interesting (unless you like Wolfenstein 3D). At the very least, this challenge provides the motivation to learn 2.5D/3D techniques to be used on the Amiga for other games. |
13 December 2017, 06:02 | #20 |
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Fast RAM would definitely be a requirement. A stock configuration won't do it.
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