Vampire discourse, keep it civil (was: Vampire 1200 V2 waiting times)

[Cego]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Nope. Both AA and AAA were supposed to be much sooner. AA was postponed, AAA was shelved. AAA wasn't developed as a result of AA. It was developed in 88-89 then shelved. Hence - it is register-wise compatible with ECS (mostly, not fully) but doesn't include anything from AA.

You keep distracting from the actual argument we were talking about and that is if RTG would've made sense in the mid 90s if we had an AAA like chipset by 1992 and maybe AAA+ in 1994.

That's one big BS. AMMX has nothing to do with AC68080 (or N68070 for that matter). I don't care about 68k compatible CPU implementation in FPGA would it be AC68080, TG68k, WF68k30, J68 or whatever. I'm not very fond of attempts to legitimize made-up expansions otherwise unavailable as standard solution. Too bad it's beyond your comprehension.

There is no standard solution in Amigaland and thats what you're not getting.
There can't be a standard if you got multiple incarnations of different solutions.
It's really not hard to understand.
In the beginning you said that targeting 060/RTG would cover all Amiga systems with GFX and contrary to it that AMMX would split up the community bringing new incompatibilities.
Now you claim that resource hungry 68k software could at least run on OS4, MorphOS and PiStorm. Three niches that nobody cares about. But you keep pushing the argument that an AMMX featured card which got so many more active users than those three platforms is splitting up the community. Please tell me, shall I cry or laugh at you?

I'm not the one who started calling ppl ignorant. Maybe you should reevaluate the way you articulate your arguments.

Being ignorant is not an insult as you're willingly and purposely overlooking arguments I made. Still you're avoiding the question about how the different 680x0 CPUs are all incompatible to each other incl. AGA-OCS and 68k-PPC and how that fits into your argument about keeping the community together.
And this is just on the hardware level. There's even more incompatibility software wise.

Yeah, wow. It would take only 100MHz Cortex M4F to get the same result but hey, AMMX is so great, cheers!

Yes it would be enough. But there are people who are not into emulation.
And you're again comparing apples with oranges. The 68080 is not built in ASIC contrary to an M4F. An 68080 in ASIC would have any emulated 680x0 CPU for breakfast.
And what you don't get about your paradox claims - bulding software targeted for highend emulation solutions like PiStorm or WinUAE wouldn't also help keeping the community together as those programs wouldn't run on anything that is classic with real CPUs.

So... dump that Riva...
And ports as well
Yeah, makes perfect sense.
V2, Icedrake and Firebird are meant for that old hardware. And V4 is just amiga compatible 3rd party hardware (which there are quite a few).

Its not a rewrite but optimizing to support AMMX.

Yes. And since my argument was about something like "when you have to rewrite software to use AMMX you might as well rewrite it to use something like embedded ARM on Cyclone V SE used instead of E series with better results overall". So did I write truth or not? Would introduction of ARM coprocessor allow even higher bitrate of videos or not? That's the point I was making... for any speed obsessed individual.

Its ok if you want your software to run on emulation. Other people don't want it. Thats the point you don't seem to get.
There are even solutions to put your raspberry pi into an Amiga 1200 case using the Amigas keyboard etc.
So lets dump all classic machines as this is the fastest and cheapest solution right? I am fine with it, but its not an argument against 68080 or any other fast solution.

Was the question with 2 possible choices (true/false) too hard on you? Too bad.

Is it so hard for you to answer a simple question?

Apollo card CPU is just bunch of flexible logic units with functions and connections programmed at startup. AC68080 is just a logic defined through the hardware description language. Your point exactly?

haha, what is your point? I know how an FPGA works, but thanks for the info

Despite what you might think FPGA softcore ain't all that far away from software emulation. It's just implemented in programmable hardware building blocks instead of sets of procedures. That's exactly the reason why you can fix bugs and add functionality.

The CPU on the Apollo is a real and legit design which is ready to go into the ASIC. Your software emulation is not. FPGA is not per default some kind of hardware emulation or would you consider an Indivision AGA also an emulator? You can use it as an emulator, but that would require a built and real world template, which does not exist for the 68080 nor the logic inside the Indivision AGA.
And there is also another big difference. FPGA/ASIC can operate in parallel. Emulation cannot. So emulation will never be as accurate as real chips. Personally I don't think thats too important because the level of compatibility is pretty high both on 68080 and software emulation (like WinUAE).

Oh not at all. I'm well aware of that. So? It only means upstart project offers already similar thing like refined vampire which has many years of development (both vampire and natami before) behind it. With obvious exception to AMMX and SAGA

No, but you're saying that AMMX is unnecessary because of some new development that came years after. Thats like saying, please don't code for AGA anymore as we got RTG now, or PPC instead of 68k. And don't forget that the goal of the 68080 is to be built as an ASIC running at 2GHz. There's really no comparison to emulation. The goals are totally different.

So what's difference does it make if code will be executed by hard processor like 060, softcore in FPGA like AC68080 or jit emulator like emu68? You still code with the same ISA (unless of course someone mess around with his own extension to said architecture).

Yes it makes a difference for a lot of people. I am repeating myself over and over. Its really not hard to accept, that people don't feel like you and that they want real hardware and not emulation. Some might consider 68080 also emulation, some not. Its up to the individual to decide. And maybe you should start with accepting that a lot of people think that the 68080 core is the best and fastest solution to realize their vision of the Amiga and that they don't feel that the community is split up.

Yeah, right... you made my day

If you keep talking even more BS, its probably gonna be the best day of your life. Congratulations

[Cego]

Originally Posted by LewisB

Lets just accept that different people have different ideas how they would like the Amiga scene to progress. Neither is right or wrong.

Some talk of splitting the scene, but that has been a fact of life in the Amiga scene since the start, whether it was the introduction of a 512k ram expansion meaning some games wouldn't run without it, or the introduction of the ECS chipset, which brought some additional features that meant that software designed for it would not run on OCS machines,

No one has any more or less rights to develop what they want for the scene, hardware or software, it's just their choice.

Likewise no one has the right to tell those who develop, or those who buy such hardware or software, that they are wrong.

EVERYONE CAN MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES

Please can everyone accept that, and for those that feel they have to voice their opinion on why their preferred solution is better - please stop - it is your actions that is splitting the community more than anything else.

Here is just one person voicing his opinion about what's better and what not. I have always represented the idea of live and let live. I am totally fine with software releases for every amiganoid solution.
Claiming that it won't help keeping the community together is BS.
This whole argument evolves around this statement.
Its a fabricated myth for whatever personal reasons he got. Probably butt-hurt as somebody has said earlier.
Its those people who dislike certain progress and developments who are constantly dividing the community potraying certain people/projects as evil.
Its ok to use AMMX, its ok to use RTG, its ok to stick with OCS, its ok to use PPC and PiStorm. The community is still together and diverse like no other retro platform. This is a good thing, not bad.

[Promilus]

Its not a rewrite but optimizing to support AMMX

Oh... That's a kind of magic which automatically optimizes binary for new ISA extension without actually touching source code! And that exactly shows how much do you know about things you keep typing over and over. Like how AAA was result of AA when it's the other way around. AA was a result of AAA being too expensive and with Commodore projections while in 1992 would be fairly good by the 1994 PC would already overtake it (that's why they stopped the development and made cheaper AGA/AA and later on tried to put it back on track with AA+ being updated AGA for budget platforms and AAA for top solutions - of course AA+ wasn't really in development, AAA was by that time not so groundbreaking and there were no plans for AAA+ whatsoever so I don't know what the heck you are writing about).

Its ok if you want your software to run on emulation. Other people don't want it. Thats the point you don't seem to get.

There's plenty of ppl thinking the same thing about CPU@FPGA, there were much more in the past but spending money on turbo card is more about end result and less about prejudice. I have no prejudice against FPGA, nor AC68080 itself. I just don't like the idea of making up new standards exclusive to one hardware solution. And that's something you just don't get it. But that's not my problem.

Being ignorant is not an insult as you're willingly and purposely overlooking arguments I made

Well your arguments are mainly jumping to (wrong) conclusions and twisting the meaning behind my sentences (mostly, because you just can't force yourself to read it calmly and carefully).

haha, what is your point? I know how an FPGA works, but thanks for the info

It means it's not all that purely hardware solution you are so fond of. And as for a goal of an ASIC - turning current design into ASIC (regardless of how expensive it would be) doesn't mean it will actually reach 2GHz out of the box. You've been living in a dream world, Neo.

No, but you're saying that AMMX is unnecessary because of some new development that came years after.

Not really. It wasn't necessary in the first place. Cyclone V family is already 10 years old. It means by the time first Vampire was made there already were Cyclone V FPGAs. And Cyclone V used in V4 is 5CEA5 which is Cyclone V, series E, model A5 (77k LE). There already was Cyclone V series SE model A5 which has 85k LE and dual cortex A9. It's not any new hardware. It was already there. Gunnar just doesn't want anything beside 68k. He didn't even like DSP56000 which was original motorola and also used in Atari Falcon. That's why he conceived AMMX. It's not because of compatibility, legacy or performance. It's because ... he likes it that particular way. His choice. And my choice is not to like it.

But there are people who are not into emulation

I wasn't talking about emulation but on offloading really compute-intensive tasks to secondary processing unit (which is incidentally called coprocessor). That were plenty of other options to offload compute intensive tasks out of the main CPU (68k) but Gunnar made choice to adopt unorthodox solution which is creating ISA extension. I understand the reason behind that choice (simplicity, heterogeneous platforms are harder to code but still, brings greater benefits, just look at PS2 with main processor and 2 vector units or PS3 with main ppc core and several simd cores). But for me it doesn't make that much difference between introducing new ISA extension which only one h/w solution supports and introducing CPU of different architecture working as coprocessor. And should performance itself be main factor - actually AMMX loses big time to ARM hard processor which even in it's slowest form of Cyclone V SE is still much faster than AMMX can be. Yes. One of the reasons Gunnar didn't chose SE is because it would be problematic when switching to mythical ASIC. He'd need to buy Cortex A9 license and built it into ASIC as well. But is it still really an option? With the crazy sh*t going on semiconductor market? You can hardly get regular chips out there. How can you expect to make small batch of custom ones?

[Cego]

Its pointless to talk to you, as you keep skipping crucial arguments i made. You keep cherrypicking a few sentences which are totally out of context regarding your original statement, which was about keeping the community together.

Originally Posted by Promilus

AA was a result of AAA being too expensive and with Commodore projections while in 1992 would be fairly good by the 1994 PC would already overtake it

What did you not understand about "hypthetical". I have never talked about the actual plans of AAA nor AA. My argument was that if Commodore kept up development we could've had something similar to SAGA in the early 90s. I really dont care if it got branded as AAA or SuperAA or whatever.

There's plenty of ppl thinking the same thing about CPU@FPGA, there were much more in the past but spending money on turbo card is more about end result and less about prejudice. I have no prejudice against FPGA, nor AC68080 itself.

Numbers don't lie. 10000 sold units of 68080 cards speak for itself. If you like it or not. This is fact. Facts you cant deny. Thats what the majority of amiga users like to use and support. Live with it.

I just don't like the idea of making up new standards exclusive to one hardware solution. And that's something you just don't get it. But that's not my problem.

Then quit using the Amiga as its just one pile of different standards.

Well your arguments are mainly jumping to (wrong) conclusions and twisting the meaning behind my sentences (mostly, because you just can't force yourself to read it calmly and carefully).

You are constantly distracting from your original statement and put things out of context. How is all that BS you're talking about in any way supporting your argument made about keeping the community together?

It means it's not all that purely hardware solution you are so fond of. And as for a goal of an ASIC - turning current design into ASIC (regardless of how expensive it would be) doesn't mean it will actually reach 2GHz out of the box. You've been living in a dream world, Neo.

I think somebody like Gunnar who is more skilled and experienced than you, got a better idea of what the 68080 can reach and what not, if put into an ASIC. Again, keep your speculations for yourself and let the experts talk. Or at least be patient enough to see whats gonna happen. The same applies for your prejudice claims about Maggie3D Unit...

Gunnar just doesn't want anything beside 68k. He didn't even like DSP56000 which was original motorola and also used in Atari Falcon. That's why he conceived AMMX. It's not because of compatibility, legacy or performance. It's because ... he likes it that particular way. His choice. And my choice is not to like it.

Theres really no difference in adding a DSP to the Amiga bus and using a PC graphics card attached via PCI bridge. It's a cheap and amiga-unorthodox way to achieve more power. This is ok as the Amiga is a open system by design. I just prefer boosting up the chipset and CPU performance.
Gunnar has always said, that his goal is to take the original custom chipset and improve it. It's ok if you'd like to prefer DSP or standard PC graphics card over new custom chip design. Everybody accepts your point of view but you seem to have a hard time doing the same.
And a Cyclone V was way more expensive back then. Wouldnt make no sense to use it as bringing affordable and new hardware to the userbase was a priority.

I wasn't talking about emulation but on offloading really compute-intensive tasks to secondary processing unit (which is incidentally called coprocessor).

Thats ok. The PPC solution was exaclty the same. Apollo just takes another approach. Nothing wrong with it. Nobody forces you to like Apollo 68080, so dont expect or convince other people to dislike it.

That were plenty of other options to offload compute intensive tasks out of the main CPU (68k) but Gunnar made choice to adopt unorthodox solution which is creating ISA extension.

The Amiga is by design unorthodox. So he just went back to the roots and did what has always been done in Amigaland. Nothing wrong with it.

I understand the reason behind that choice (simplicity, heterogeneous platforms are harder to code but still, brings greater benefits, just look at PS2 with main processor and 2 vector units or PS3 with main ppc core and several simd cores).

I dont want to talk on Gunnars behalf, but the whole idea of 68080 evolves around the original DMA design of the Amiga. Attaching standard PC stuff was never an option for him.
And the Amigas original design was always about that kind of unorthodox implemention. Its what made the Amiga a great computer. It lost its edge when Commodore slept on the development and never got it back when they started to implement standard PC hardware.

But for me it doesn't make that much difference between introducing new ISA extension which only one h/w solution supports and introducing CPU of different architecture working as coprocessor. And should performance itself be main factor - actually AMMX loses big time to ARM hard processor which even in it's slowest form of Cyclone V SE is still much faster than AMMX can be.

I have also used RTG Amigas, PPC etc and wouldnt mind neither. I just think that 68080 is the most truthful reimpementation of the original Amiga design, which i admire the most compared with PPC/RTG stuff. And a lot of people feel the same way. Numbers don't lie...

Yes. One of the reasons Gunnar didn't chose SE is because it would be problematic when switching to mythical ASIC. He'd need to buy Cortex A9 license and built it into ASIC as well. But is it still really an option? With the crazy sh*t going on semiconductor market? You can hardly get regular chips out there. How can you expect to make small batch of custom ones?

This is just speculation again. I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with license issues.

[grond]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

But, people from the Vamp side tend to ascribe some higher moral virtues to their argument

Actually it is quite the contrary: the van Helsings regularly cite higher virtues such as maintaining a unified platform (evil Vamps fragment the platform), compatibility (evil Vamps have exclusive software not accessible to others), customer rights (poor Vamp customers are being exploited), good behaviour (evil Gunnar hurts people's feelings) and probably a few more.

[Pyromania]

I think 10,000 Vampire V4 solutions being sold is pretty impressive in the now small Amiga market. Also, it’s good that there are competing solutions. Competition breeds innovation. I just hope everyone can get along. We are all Amiga fans after all, or at least I like to hope so.

[Promilus]

Numbers don't lie...

Are those numbers representing ppl which actually bought vampire BECAUSE of AMMX or just because it was fast CPU with RTG which was otherwise unavailable (or hardly available in case of A1200 and 2000)? Yeah, thought so...

Also about hypothetical (that's how you spell it) chipset... well Hombre is your friend. That's what it would look like. Very much unlike SAGA.

The Amiga is by design unorthodox

Oh? What's unorthodox in there? DMA? Not really. Blitter? It's just evolution of chips which already have been used in arcade machines (which is not surprising since originally Amiga was going to be gaming console itself). The only unorthodox thing was multitasking operating system with graphical user interface. One might also say autoconfig but incidentally there was some primitive auto detection used by some 8bit atari models (with "new device" feature of OS). Funny thing that this unorthodox OS was hardly ever used at that time.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by grond

Actually it is quite the contrary: the van Helsings regularly cite higher virtues such as maintaining a unified platform (evil Vamps fragment the platform), compatibility (evil Vamps have exclusive software not accessible to others), customer rights (poor Vamp customers are being exploited), good behaviour (evil Gunnar hurts people's feelings) and probably a few more.

You miss the point completely. All these things you recount are normal points of contention. It's obvious there have to be some, otherwise there would be no dispute. And using your logic it's possible to drag anything under the umbrella of "morality" thus rendering this angle meaningless.

I was referring to the way people here use moral higher ground in the process of the dispute itself, saying that any argument against The V is inherently intolerant, divisive, and/or hateful. This is a really tiresome internet crutch, because using it you can dismiss any negative opinion by just calling your opponent a "hater".

Also, my comment was spurred by the charge of being "religious/ideological". But this can be applied to one side as much to the other, coz the thing about the cake is that you can't have and eat it.

The bottom line is these arguments are not going away, like it or not. And that's just fine, because we don't live in a utopia where everyone has the same opinion, especially when it comes to a highly divisive product or idea.
So, I don't mind people critiquing the Apollos nor the others defending them. Just be honest about it and stick to real arguments instead of trying to paint the other side as intolerant haters. Trying to avoid ad hominems, NO Us, and exhausting cicular exchanges would help too (for both sides). Not having the last word is not a big deal, it really is okay to step away from the keyboard sometimes

[Cego]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Are those numbers representing ppl which actually bought vampire BECAUSE of AMMX or just because it was fast CPU with RTG which was otherwise unavailable (or hardly available in case of A1200 and 2000)? Yeah, thought so...

Fast CPU includes AMMX, more Cache, 64Bit and improved Superscalar. In the end it doesnt matter as its the most spread hardware nowadays. It is an well established standard by now. Accept it.

Oh? What's unorthodox in there? DMA? Not really. Blitter? It's just evolution of chips which already have been used in arcade machines (which is not surprising since originally Amiga was going to be gaming console itself). The only unorthodox thing was multitasking operating system with graphical user interface. One might also say autoconfig but incidentally there was some primitive auto detection used by some 8bit atari models (with "new device" feature of OS). Funny thing that this unorthodox OS was hardly ever used at that time.

What a pile of BS you're talking. And you skipped again all of the crucial arguments i made. Just keep hating 68080/AMMX. It makes no sense to keep this going on as you're constantly asspulling arguments which make no sense.
Amiga's chipset design is unorthodox compared to RTG solution/PC hardware integration, which we talked about here in the first place. Of course, you are just fading out all that to win an argument, even if its completely out of context.

But you made it clear that you're just trolling by this point and obvious for everyone to see that you really have nothing else to say.

[Cego]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

I was referring to the way people here use moral higher ground in the process of the dispute itself, saying that any argument against The V is inherently intolerant, divisive, and/or hateful. This is a really tiresome internet crutch, because using it you can dismiss any negative opinion by just calling your opponent a "hater".

My conclusion after all this is, that its not about the V. Its about butt-hurt people trying to find some lame excuses why V is bad for the community. You cannot hold that argument while the facts speak the complete opposite. The arguments stated make no sense.

The person in question is obviously using those kind of illogical arguments to express his hate for V. You dont have to like it and you can indeed hate it as much as you want but he shouldnt act like the BS he's saying makes any sense.
A "moral higher ground" was established in this thread when this person acted like his arguments were expressed for the sake of the community (to save it from something bad like the V). He was the one demonizing a product that is used by thousands of Amiga users.
The community won't be split because of what Gunnar is developing. His hate regarding 68080/AMMX is purely personal and not rooted in something bad that could happen to the platform.

His arguments are getting less and less, because he knows there's nothing else to say anymore. He's subsequently changing the focus and shifting the topics, to keep his self-absorbed blabla going.

If you ask me, this is stubborn and ignorant. I dont claim a moral highground, he's just digging himself deeper into the shithole with lies and false claims he's making and dismantling his true face.

[grond]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

You miss the point completely. All these things you recount are normal points of contention.

So you reserve the higher moral ground for yourself because one moral argument ("fragmenting the user base") is a "normal point of contention" while in reality all this is merely about a purchase decision of an Amiga user other than yourself and hence none of your business. You can say "none of the AMMX/SAGA exclusive software titles is of any interest to me" which is a valid argument or rather point of view. But "the Vampire is fragmenting the user base" is a lame moral argument. It's not your user base, you are one individual in the crowd.

It's obvious there have to be some, otherwise there would be no dispute. And using your logic it's possible to drag anything under the umbrella of "morality" thus rendering this angle meaningless.

My logic? What is my logic? I was merely pointing out that the van Helsings use moral-type arguments all the time, many times proclaiming themselves advocat of other people (because you aren't Vampire customers).

How do you make my statement into a general logic principle that anything can be "dragged under the umbrella of morality"? I can't follow your reasoning.

I was referring to the way people here use moral higher ground in the process of the dispute itself, saying that any argument against The V is inherently intolerant, divisive, and/or hateful.

Who does this? I have seen one individual use that argument. You claim that this is a trend among pro-Vampire people. Show me examples.

This is a really tiresome internet crutch, because using it you can dismiss any negative opinion by just calling your opponent a "hater".

Which isn't what happened here. It was said that, wishing a market option away because other people might like or even support it with new software, was intolerant.

Also, my comment was spurred by the charge of being "religious/ideological". But this can be applied to one side as much to the other,

Actually the religious/sect argument is something that is constantly made by the van Helsings. There don't seem to be many such arguments made in support of the Vampire.

Just be honest about it and stick to real arguments instead of trying to paint the other side as intolerant haters. Trying to avoid ad hominems,

So why did you make the bold claim that Vampire supporters tend to be the ones to use moral type arguments (or "processes") in the first place? By doing so you made an unsupported ad hominem (or better ad homines) attack against a group of thousands of Amiga users. Is it because you safely assume yourself to stand on moral high ground?

[hammer]

Originally Posted by NovaCoder

Vampire/Apollo has definitely split the small Amiga classic community which is sad. If they'd just stuck to a simple 68k CPU replacement rather than trying to build a 'next generation Amiga' stand alone computer it would have been preferable.

Apollo-core's AMMX SIMD fork is not relevant for Amiga 68K legacy and improving 68K performance. It's another Phase 5 fork distraction.

[Tigerskunk]

Guys, chill!

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Cego

Thats ok. Just use your PC with WinUAE or a Raspberry Pi then. Thats the cheapest solution for you. Question is, are you also fine with people wanting to use expensive and exclusive hardware that is pushing the limits of the original machines further without emulation?

What's LLVM re-compiler in mainstream PC GPU drivers then?

The mainstream market already has hit-the-metal game console and it's called PS4/PS5. Hit-the-metal backward compatibly has imposed strict topology design between PS4 (with 18 CU), PS4 Pro (with 36 CU, strict 2X of 18 CU) and PS5 (with 36 CU, strict 2X of 18 CU) while the Xbox team has the freedom to evolve it's GPUs from 12 CU to 44 CU to 20 CU and 52 CU.

----

PiStorm/Pi3a/emu68 still retains C= Amiga hardware while the CPUs originated from Motorola/Freescale (or any other 68K licensee e.g. Hitachi, Thomson). Below the OS level CPU translation is not new e.g. Transmeta's Code Morphing Software (CMS) Crusoe/Efficeon (VLIW-based architecture with X86-64) or NVIDIA's Project Denver (VLIW-based architecture with ARMv8).

AMD K5 had hardware decoders with AM29K like RISC CPU.

PiStorm/Pi3a/emu68 doesn't have 68K hardware decoders, hence the concept follows Transmeta's Code Morphing Software (CMS) concepts.

Modern X86 CPUs have firmware-based micro-coding decoders to patch hardware erratas instead of executing expensive product recalls.

[Pyromania]

What’s XAGA?

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Not having the last word is not a big deal, it really is okay to step away from the keyboard sometimes

@grond: in case you were wondering, this is what has happened with our "argument". You should try it sometimes

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Cego

You're criticizing that new hardware brings incompatibilities but at the same time demand new software, which would require faster machines. How's that possible?

How do you wanna have new software like PSX emulator running on an 060 with RTG? How's Quake3 or Diablo possible on the old established standard you're talking about? You're also talking about 3D, but there are just a handful of gfx cards that can handle 3D and all of them are 20+ years old.
How do you wnat to have new softwrae for those cards if they're too slow?
It makes no sense to write new software, if you're CPU and GFX card cant handle it.

AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC platform can support Radeon GCN via Warp3D Nova Southern Islands. This hardware doesn't run with classic Amiga hardware.

On PiStorm/Pi 3a, Broadcom Video Core IV is the RTG card and it's about 10 years old. This hardware runs with classic Amiga 1000/500/600 hardware.

On Linux (ARM Pi), an open-source Vulkan driver has been released for Broadcom Video Core IV RPi-VK-Driver on Github. Martin Thomas, an NVIDIA engineer has programmed Broadcom Video Core IV RPi-VK-Driver in his spare time.

Pi-VK-Driver implements a subset of the Vulkan, and since it is not fully conformant to the standard it cannot technically be called a Vulkan driver as it lacks features such as GLSL shaders. However, it does implement MSAA support, low-level assembly shaders, and performance counters in a way that’s good enough to play vkQuake 3 (Vulkan) Quake 3 on a Raspberry Pi 3A+/B+ at over 100 fps using 720p resolution.

Amiga68K's side needs the middleware software infrastructure to access Broadcom Video Core IV 3D in addition to RTG access.

Broadcom Video Core IV has support for OpenGL-ES 1.1/2.0, but the Amiga 68K side would need middleware software infrastructure to access 3D accelerator features.

PiStorm/Pi 3a has a low cost of entry like the Nintendo SNES Super FX2 game cartridge.

64-bit integer SIMD AMMX translation can be added for PiStorm/Pi 3a/Emu68 since ARM Cortex A53 has 128-bit NEON SIMD (integer and floating point SIMD).

Originally Posted by Cego

Thats a totally different topic. Using AMMX/SAGA also benefits from modern IDEs. The only way to run highend apps on RTG/060 is on WinUAE. But as a i said, emulators should not be a yardstick and requirement for amiga software to run in 2022. Most Amiga users want to use their real machines and with the power they offer.

PiStorm/Pi 3a/Emu68 adds a very fast 68K CPU and RTG for the classic C= Amiga hardware platform. PiStorm/Pi 3a/Emu68 is another alternative for the classic C= Amiga hardware.

"The only way to run highend apps on RTG/060 is on WinUAE" is not true.

Originally Posted by Cego

Why is it scary? Did you also think the same, when 060/FPU was introduced to the Amiga? Did you think the same when Amiga made the transition to PPC?

PowerPC path wasn't Commodore's adventure. Amiga didn't transition towards PowerPC since the high hardware cost didn't replace Amiga 500's price segment. The cost issue is the same for 68060 cards. "Design in Germany" Phase 5 is a major factor in the failed transition.

ARM SoCs have a better chance due to their relatively low-cost entry, modern competitive performance, and big-endian support.

The ARM1 CPU was Acorn's answer for Commodore's crap R&D road map for CSG/MOS 65xx CPU family. Later in BBC Micro's life, ARM1 was used as a co-processor. Raspberry Pi is the 21st-century replacement for ZX Spectrum (Z80A) and BBC Micro (CSG/MOS 6502/6512).

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Are those numbers representing ppl which actually bought vampire BECAUSE of AMMX or just because it was fast CPU with RTG which was otherwise unavailable (or hardly available in case of A1200 and 2000)? Yeah, thought so...

Also about hypothetical (that's how you spell it) chipset... well Hombre is your friend. That's what it would look like. Very much unlike SAGA.

Commodore's Amiga-Hombre was based on PA-RISC with an SGI's OpenGL target.

PA-RISC was HP's answer for Motorola ending 68K from the high-performance CPU segment since HP Unix offerings are 68K based.

Amiga CD64 would be similar to SGI-designed N64, but with a CD drive and a different RISC CPU. The key SGI team members who design N64 form ArtX company that was later brought by ATI. ArtX designed Game Cube and significant contribution with Radeon 9700 (SIMD-based GPU).

Commodore didn't survive the PC Doom 386/486/Pentium transition.

AAA's 2D multi-parallax layers are inferior to textured map 3D's perspective parallax.

[Promilus]

@hammmer - back in early 90s there were many upstart architectures with SuperH being one of them (and so was more expensive PA-RISC). SH was used in several consoles so it only proves it's worth. Nevertheless direction was towards industry standards and HAL not towards bare metal chipset.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by hammer

Commodore didn't survive the PC Doom 386/486/Pentium transition.

CBM didn't survive its own bad business decisions way before Doom appeared. Doom might have been the final nail in the coffin, but CBM was most likely dead in December 1993 anyway.