LCD TV or Flickerfixer / Scandoubler

17 June 2007, 22:58

So what you're saying is that any LCD TV would manage to cope with both 320x256 PAL for games and the higher resolution (ie 800*600) for Workbench? Seems like I can get a brand new LCD TV for a little over double the price of a flickerfixer/scandoubler here in Norway.

18 June 2007, 00:45

Hi Alexh: I did in fact see that the flickerfixer/scandoubler was out of stock, but my question was about the LCD TV. Maybe this post should've gone in some other thread, but it was sort of a follow-up question to the things discussed here.

So again (off-topic or not): will a HD Ready LCD TV manage to show both PAL 320x256 for games and say 800x600 for workbench, with no flickering?

Jope · 18 June 2007, 08:28

It depends very much on the TV/monitor you're using. Some accept a wide range of inputs, some don't go lower than 56Hz vertical (useless for a PAL Amiga even with a scandoubler!)

I have one from LG (M1721A) that is a monitor with tv-tuner (so it's not sold as a TV, but as a monitor) and this one has a VGA connector that is able to sync down to 15kHz horizontal and 50Hz vertical.

If the display you are using has a SCART connector, you can feed the 15kHz signal through there, but the display probably will not accept any higher horizontal refreshes through SCART (like your 800x600 would be).

DamienD · 18 June 2007, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

I'd split the thread to prb.Hardware but I don't have the privileges in this area of the forum. :-)

Done

Jope · 18 June 2007, 18:16

Thanking you. :-)

Pyromania · 19 June 2007, 02:46

Would this do the NTSC Amiga resolutions too? LG (M1721A)

Jope · 19 June 2007, 06:06

It would. It has RGB SCART, S-video, composite and vga connectors in the back.

Perfect for Amiga, C-64, etc..

The only thing is that if you're allergic to LCD upscaler blurring, then don't get a TFT monitor. :-)

Christian · 19 June 2007, 13:00

@Jope

What's the scrolling like on these screens? Especially on something like Pinball Dreams/Fantasies. Does it look glitchy or weird at all?

Cheers

Jope · 19 June 2007, 14:57

Horizontal scrolling looks fine, but I don't remember how vertical scrolling works.. I'll check it out some time.

fc.studio · 23 June 2007, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

It depends very much on the TV/monitor you're using. Some accept a wide range of inputs, some don't go lower than 56Hz vertical (useless for a PAL Amiga even with a scandoubler!)

I have one from LG (M1721A) that is a monitor with tv-tuner (so it's not sold as a TV, but as a monitor) and this one has a VGA connector that is able to sync down to 15kHz horizontal and 50Hz vertical.

If the display you are using has a SCART connector, you can feed the 15kHz signal through there, but the display probably will not accept any higher horizontal refreshes through SCART (like your 800x600 would be).

I just bought a LG M1921A.
Setting PAL Hi-res Inter. gives an image not stable (Flickering?)
I need something similar to DBLPAL (vertical res. 512 not 256) for Workbench.
@Jope, did you get it? If so, how you connect it? I'm using SCART, but only PAL setting gives me stable image.
Should I change the monitor to have a stable image with vertical 512 or up resolution?

Jope · 24 June 2007, 15:24

The monitor doesn't have a flicker fixer, only an upscan converter. Interlaced modes will flicker.

You would need to use the VGA connector (set input to RGB-DTV) and then some ECS 31kHz mode like DBLPAL to get rid of the flicker.

fc.studio · 24 June 2007, 16:45

I'm confused. What is "upscan converter"?

What have I to do to have PAL mode for games and DBLPAL mode (or similar) for WorkBench. Do I need two connections (PAL=Scart for games and DBLPAL=VGA for WB) and to set source on LCD-TV every time I want change mode?

Does any LCD-TV work like this one? Does any LCD-TV flicker the Interlaced-mode?

I thought I could set width (e.g. 720 and up) and height (e.g. 512 and up)
on standard PAL Hi-res mode preferences and LCD-TV could let me view all this area. Doing this I get a screen of this dimension but I can see it all only by scrolling it.

Could you answer me? Thanks.

Jope · 24 June 2007, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by fc.studio

I'm confused. What is "upscan converter"?

Scandoubler

Quote:

What have I to do to have PAL mode for games and DBLPAL mode (or similar) for WorkBench. Do I need two connections (PAL=Scart for games and DBLPAL=VGA for WB) and to set source on LCD-TV every time I want change mode?

No, use the VGA connector only and select RGB-DTV from the input menu. The monitor will sync to most Amiga screenmodes then without you having to visit the input menu all the time.

Quote:

Does any LCD-TV work like this one? Does any LCD-TV flicker the Interlaced-mode?

I haven't yet seen one with flickerfixing. Someone else might have? Don't know if they exist. I wouldn't get too excited while waiting for one to show up.

Quote:

I thought I could set width (e.g. 720 and up) and height (e.g. 512 and up)
on standard PAL Hi-res mode preferences and LCD-TV could let me view all this area. Doing this I get a screen of this dimension but I can see it all only by scrolling it.

You define how big the custom chip modes are in Overscan prefs and then you define the size of the "virtual screen" in Screenmode prefs.

Go to Overscan prefs, stretch the screen as large as fits on your tft, then go to Screenmode prefs and select the default sizes there.

You see the two checkboxes on the right hand side:

fc.studio · 24 June 2007, 18:09

Do I have to enter overscan prefs with PAL 640x256 selected?
If I go to overscan prefs, with PAL 640x256, I can get max 724x283.
Then if I go to screenmode prefs I can change these values but, as above, I can see the whole screen by scrolling only.

At the moment I'm using a Scart Connection.
Do you think that if I use a VGA/adapter and then I connect Amiga to LCD-TV with normal VGA cable I can set these values larger and get screens similar to DBLPAL without the opportunity to play standard PAL games? and when I'll play games how I see them? (Centered in a small window)?

alexh · 24 June 2007, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jope

I haven't yet seen one with flickerfixing. Someone else might have? Don't know if they exist. I wouldn't get too excited while waiting for one to show up.

Every LCDTV that I've tried has a flicker fixer. It's TV... and all TV inputs are interlaced, but the all LCD outputs are progressive... so by its very nature it HAS to have a flicker fixer!

Quote:

No, use the VGA connector only and select RGB-DTV from the input menu. The monitor will sync to most Amiga screenmodes then without you having to visit the input menu all the time.

You must have a very rare LCDTV. Non that I have tried support 15KHz via the VGA connector.

Jope · 24 June 2007, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Every LCDTV that I've tried has a flicker fixer. It's TV... and all TV inputs are interlaced, but the all LCD outputs are progressive... so by its very nature it HAS to have a flicker fixer!

Hmm, a scaler / upscan converter is not necessarily a flickerfixer..

Well, this one certainly doesn't do anything about the flicker, no matter what input you use.

Quote:

You must have a very rare LCDTV. Non that I have tried support 15KHz via the VGA connector.

That's why I bought this one.. It can sync to all common custom chip modes (PAL, NTSC, DBLPAL, DBLNTSC) and some of the uncommon ones too. :-)

I was surprised that it can even do superhires interlaced.

fc.studio · 24 June 2007, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Every LCDTV that I've tried has a flicker fixer. It's TV... and all TV inputs are interlaced, but the all LCD outputs are progressive... so by its very nature it HAS to have a flicker fixer!

You must have a very rare LCDTV. Non that I have tried support 15KHz via the VGA connector.

@alex:
You are asserting that every LCD-TV is able to show PAL Hi-Res Interlaced (640x512) image with no flickering.
I cas assure you that if I set this mode on M1921A the image flickers.
Perhaps the problem is that this is sold as LCD Monitor-TV, not only LCD-TV????
Curiosity: when you play a game born with PAL 640x256, in which position you can see it (centered, up/down left/right) ?

@jope:
product specifications by LG show Horizontal frequency 30-70 kHz. (perhaps it refers to pc-mode only)
In the manual, in PC mode details, min is 31,468 and max is 68,681.
Manual refers both M1721A (yours) and M1921A (mine)
I would not like to buy a VGA adapter and then I can't solve the problem.
Are you reporting to real experience?

alexh · 24 June 2007, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by fc.studio

@alex:
You are asserting that every LCD-TV is able to show PAL Hi-Res Interlaced (640x512) image with no flickering.
I cas assure you that if I set this mode on M1921A the image flickers.

Interlace flicker or refresh flicker? Is it rock solid in PAL 640x256?

Jope · 24 June 2007, 20:08

I have the monitor turned on right behind me now.

The freq range you see is indeed for RGB-PC input mode, 15kHz can be input when you select RGB-DTV.

I just started playing around with it, but I remembered wrong, it cannot do DBLPAL . The lowest it will go in RGB-DTV mode is 15kHz/50Hz and DBLPAL is actually 48Hz vertical.

However you can use multiscan or some other higher frequency monitor driver, or use a monitor editing program from Aminet to boost DBLPAL up to 50Hz.

fc.studio · 24 June 2007, 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Interlace flicker or refresh flicker? Is it rock solid in PAL 640x256?

In standard PAL 640x256 is stable.

18 June 2007, 08:28	#3
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,911	It depends very much on the TV/monitor you're using. Some accept a wide range of inputs, some don't go lower than 56Hz vertical (useless for a PAL Amiga even with a scandoubler!) I have one from LG (M1721A) that is a monitor with tv-tuner (so it's not sold as a TV, but as a monitor) and this one has a VGA connector that is able to sync down to 15kHz horizontal and 50Hz vertical. If the display you are using has a SCART connector, you can feed the 15kHz signal through there, but the display probably will not accept any higher horizontal refreshes through SCART (like your 800x600 would be). Last edited by Jope; 18 June 2007 at 18:15.

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17 June 2007, 22:58	#1
olas Posts: n/a	So what you're saying is that any LCD TV would manage to cope with both 320x256 PAL for games and the higher resolution (ie 800*600) for Workbench? Seems like I can get a brand new LCD TV for a little over double the price of a flickerfixer/scandoubler here in Norway.

18 June 2007, 00:45	#2
olas Posts: n/a	Hi Alexh: I did in fact see that the flickerfixer/scandoubler was out of stock, but my question was about the LCD TV. Maybe this post should've gone in some other thread, but it was sort of a follow-up question to the things discussed here. So again (off-topic or not): will a HD Ready LCD TV manage to show both PAL 320x256 for games and say 800x600 for workbench, with no flickering?

18 June 2007, 18:16	#5
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,911	Thanking you. :-)

19 June 2007, 02:46	#6
Pyromania Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,390	Would this do the NTSC Amiga resolutions too? LG (M1721A)

19 June 2007, 06:06	#7
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,911	It would. It has RGB SCART, S-video, composite and vga connectors in the back. Perfect for Amiga, C-64, etc.. The only thing is that if you're allergic to LCD upscaler blurring, then don't get a TFT monitor. :-)

19 June 2007, 13:00	#8
Christian Zone Friend Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gloucestershire Age: 51 Posts: 218	@Jope What's the scrolling like on these screens? Especially on something like Pinball Dreams/Fantasies. Does it look glitchy or weird at all? Cheers

19 June 2007, 14:57	#9
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,911	Horizontal scrolling looks fine, but I don't remember how vertical scrolling works.. I'll check it out some time.

24 June 2007, 15:24	#11
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,911	The monitor doesn't have a flicker fixer, only an upscan converter. Interlaced modes will flicker. You would need to use the VGA connector (set input to RGB-DTV) and then some ECS 31kHz mode like DBLPAL to get rid of the flicker.

24 June 2007, 16:45	#12
fc.studio Cat lover Join Date: May 2004 Location: Italy Age: 54 Posts: 804	I'm confused. What is "upscan converter"? What have I to do to have PAL mode for games and DBLPAL mode (or similar) for WorkBench. Do I need two connections (PAL=Scart for games and DBLPAL=VGA for WB) and to set source on LCD-TV every time I want change mode? Does any LCD-TV work like this one? Does any LCD-TV flicker the Interlaced-mode? I thought I could set width (e.g. 720 and up) and height (e.g. 512 and up) on standard PAL Hi-res mode preferences and LCD-TV could let me view all this area. Doing this I get a screen of this dimension but I can see it all only by scrolling it. Could you answer me? Thanks.

24 June 2007, 18:09	#14
fc.studio Cat lover Join Date: May 2004 Location: Italy Age: 54 Posts: 804	Do I have to enter overscan prefs with PAL 640x256 selected? If I go to overscan prefs, with PAL 640x256, I can get max 724x283. Then if I go to screenmode prefs I can change these values but, as above, I can see the whole screen by scrolling only. At the moment I'm using a Scart Connection. Do you think that if I use a VGA/adapter and then I connect Amiga to LCD-TV with normal VGA cable I can set these values larger and get screens similar to DBLPAL without the opportunity to play standard PAL games? and when I'll play games how I see them? (Centered in a small window)?

24 June 2007, 20:08	#19
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,911	I have the monitor turned on right behind me now. The freq range you see is indeed for RGB-PC input mode, 15kHz can be input when you select RGB-DTV. I just started playing around with it, but I remembered wrong, it cannot do DBLPAL . The lowest it will go in RGB-DTV mode is 15kHz/50Hz and DBLPAL is actually 48Hz vertical. However you can use multiscan or some other higher frequency monitor driver, or use a monitor editing program from Aminet to boost DBLPAL up to 50Hz.

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