26 February 2021, 17:35 | #61 |
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It was all about money. The original Amiga would have succeeded, they had every advantage in terms of graphics, processing power etc. The original IBM pc at the time was just text, and very very expensive. It would have never beaten an Amiga even in word processing. The original IBM only had 640x200 at max same as an Amiga but with only 16 colors. It wasn't until later that it caught up and eventually had better graphics due to third party graphics cards. The sound was a dinky speaker inside the box. Lightyears behind the Amiga. As for multi-tasking, it couldn't. The pc could basically only do one thing at a time while the Amiga could format a disk and play music at the same time without affecting each other.
So what was the real reason? Money. Commodore simply didn't want to put more money into it. So while the Amiga was ahead of its time in hardware, it was eventually caught up by the other companies. With proprietary hardware and software, the hardware was expensive and stayed expensive. In the meanwhile in the pc world, hardware got cheaper and more advanced every year. The software caught up and surpassed the Amiga OS. Windows as crappy as it was, still offered a more user friendly experience. The nail in the coffin was the Commodore Bankruptcy. With that, there was no real confidence in the market for Amiga computers amongst the business community. But it still had a huge following in the general public. Unfortunately, without support, it became what it was today. Motorolla stopped improving the 68000 series chips and the power pc and other ideas were just x8086 in emulator box. Now there is a new hope with the Vampire V4 with its new FPGA chip it is significantly faster than the old Amigas. However, it is still way behind the current technology in terms of processing power and performance and the graphics are still behind what a pc with a gforce or radeon card can do. So the way forward is to find a way to improve on the Vampire design for the next generation and get a chip company to make it into a real chip and cut down costs. Get it compatible with graphics cards and interfaces like PCI express etc and keep up with the PCs. Look at the popularity of a Raspberry pi, Amiga can be just as popular with even more possibilities. PS: The other thing I forgot to mention was portability. The Amiga was a compact little machine all contained inside a big keyboard shape. The IBM was a big clunky metal box with a separate keyboard and mouse. I remember doing a term paper in college and lugging my Amiga to class to do a presentation. It definitely would have been harder with a IBM PC. I owned an IBM xt at the time and yes, all of my term paper was still written on the Amiga word processor. In terms of visiting friends with your computer, the Amiga won at the time. Nowadays look at how popular it is to have a portable computer. Laptops, smart phones, and little lan gaming boxes. The V4 standalone really is a good start with a tiny little box like those mini-pcs. Last edited by MoonDragn; 26 February 2021 at 17:43. |
27 February 2021, 01:28 | #62 |
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This is really an enjoyable thread. The 15khz vs. 31khz monitor element is something I genuinely didn't understand until this discussion.
I think in the long-term, the IBM PC compatibles were going to win simply because they had so many companies with a vested interest in its success due to the "open" architecture. There's some really interesting (to me anyway) comments in this thread that make a pretty compelling case. My dad's thoughts from 1986 were coming directly from an Apple II / DEC Terminal (he didn't get a PC until the 90s) was that the Amiga didn't let him do common computer work (spreadsheets, word processing) because the Amiga didn't support a text mode (and no, a 640x200 graphics mode that manages to jam 80 characters per line is not a text mode). He doesn't "misremember" having to go back to his Apple II to get word processing and spreadsheets done in 1986. Not having a text mode is only a mistake with the sheer benefit of hindsight and who knows what compromises it would have required. It is worth noting that the C-128 did have a text mode AND a 640x200 graphics mode and could be connected to a CGA monitor. I have a working Amiga 1000 with a working 1084 CRT monitor and Word Perfect 4.1. No, you would not want to do any real work on it. Heck, even running an Infocom game on an Amiga was painful (every played Zork on an Amiga 1000 OCS? The Commodore 64 did it better because it had a TEXT mode). From reading the comments and my own recent research, it appears these were all trade-offs for dealing with the 15khz CRT displays of the time. The Amiga was able to gets its own niche for awhile until the commodity driven PC's got hardware that overwhelmed the specialized chipsets of the Amiga. Perhaps the only path for Amiga longevity was as a "game console"+ where instead of say Sony or Nintendo we might have had Amigas. This thread inspired me to pay around on my Amiga 2000 today (it's upgraded to ECS so I can do 640x400 with 4 colors non-interlaced). It was so far ahead of its time in so many different areas. The multitasking alone is just insane. However, I have forgotten how to boot from the floppy drive when you have a hard drive. lol. |
27 February 2021, 02:28 | #63 |
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80 columns != textmode. As I wrote, your dad was stuck in the old. Perhaps more Americans were. GUI was clearly the future as we all can conclude now, some embraced it quickly, others were slow. Amiga and Mac launched with GUI, everything was suddenly old. People that were old would just have to change, if the future was to come. They all did change, eventually, and were happy for the change.
Jobs limited users as he always did, but there was no such thing with Amiga. Amiga opened up everything including bus, expansion cards, even cards to run Mac OS better than Mac. Higher resolution than Mac, and in color, and any size screen you want, and it doesn't even have to be the one built into the computer. Computers with built-in monitors were common in the 1970s. Jobs just wanted a nifty plastic case with a handle to lift the computer. Silly. Amiga was serious. There was also a PC card that probably emulated text mode and some clunky old software. It was probably no good. I don't care, because PC represented the old. Again about text mode: Just no. If Amiga did text mode at launch, it would have been dead in the water. It's very expandable, with expansions being made for it still and some coming up on online auction sites at increasing prices as they sell out. |
27 February 2021, 02:31 | #64 |
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Thank you for starting this thread! I'm enjoying reading all the posts while troubleshooting my Amiga 500. This one just stopped working and just the red light on the keyboard keeps blinking.
Anyway, the story of Amiga being lost to the PC is like the story of Dreamcast who lost to Playstation although they were both ahead of their time. |
27 February 2021, 02:56 | #65 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
If you're going to be graphics mode only you either need it to be high enough resolution to do work on (if you want people to do work on it) OR you need to provide a text mode until the tech (say 31khz) becomes cheap enough. The problem with the Amiga (1000) is that it only included the graphics mode but wasn't high enough resolution to do work in graphics mode. Quote:
I am not understanding why you think someone opining on why they think the Amiga didn't survive in the way the PC and Mac did as meaning he didn't like the Amiga. He liked his Amiga. He still has it. But he couldn't do certain types of basic work on it in 1985 for the reasons previously articulated. In short: If 640x200 is your maximum non-interlaced resolution then I think you need to include a text mode if you want the machine to be used for word processing and spreadsheets which were the primary thing people used computers for at the time. I'd be very skeptical to hear someone say that they actually used Word Perfect 4.1 on an Amiga back in 1986 and thought it was a good experience. Edit: I'm not sure why someone would think that having a text mode would have killed the Amiga at launch. The Amiga was capable of not just quickly switching between resolutions and modes but could actually do multiple resolutions on screen at once. Last edited by Frogs; 27 February 2021 at 03:01. |
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27 February 2021, 05:36 | #66 | |
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Quote:
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27 February 2021, 06:15 | #67 |
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27 February 2021, 09:21 | #68 |
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In the USA at least it was the lack of fight/advertising for, "Industry Standards"
Microsoft and Adobe owes alot of their recognition to higher education institutes deeming their software as, 'Industry Standard.' Once a program or platform is deemed, 'industry standard' Universities preach their word to students but also give students large discounts on the program or hardware being taught. I drove a professor dead pissed at the world after telling him SoftImage and 3DS Max suck. I was pro 'Lightwave' back then. Commodore Amiga had its chance in the 90s to become, 'industry standard' bin NTSC video production but didn't act on it. The high school I went to had an a2000 w/VideoToaster for the AV class. The teacher teaching that course wouldn't budge on using the class budget for a 060 card and memory so, in my silent protest I spent the class time playing games on the Amiga. |
27 February 2021, 15:32 | #69 | ||
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Even if the Amiga had text mode, you wouldn't pay $2000 extra to get the same. And as I said, buying a $2000 computer for 1 app wasn't invented yet. This is why (since theories are a dime a dozen) as I wrote a theory must explain why early adopters didn't buy computer X. Quote:
The document will be much longer than 25 lines anyway, so the number of lines don't matter. |
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27 February 2021, 16:41 | #70 |
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Concerning 80-column text, I'm reminded of the Atari ST, which had two issues, as I recall:
1. Some help files were 40-column, some were 80-column, but you had to manually go into the settings to go to a higher resolution. 2. The high-res monochrome resolution actually used a different, more detailed font, for hi-res text, rendering the whole point of the higher resolution null. |
27 February 2021, 18:19 | #71 |
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27 February 2021, 19:19 | #72 | |
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Out of curiosity, when did you first get an Amiga? Your posts really strike me as someone who never used an Amiga during this period. It was a $1,200 computer (in 1985 dollars) without a monitor. It wasn’t marketed as a toy but as a better, less expensive alternative to the Mac and PC. But you couldn’t use it realistically to do the things people wanted to do on a Mac or PC. Anyone suggesting otherwise almost certainly never owned an Amiga in 1985. |
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27 February 2021, 19:30 | #73 | |
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And the PC and the MAC were more appealing from this point of view for a professional because of a more serious display appearance and quality for both. The PC was the one with the professional austere line with green text display, the MAC was the one with the clean, net and sharp B&W display. The Amiga was the one with the orange workbench, Zzzz cartoon style cursor and Guru meditation messages ie a machine for hippies, children and eventually artists. It's a matter of perception. |
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27 February 2021, 20:20 | #74 |
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I don't get this obsession with textmodes that the OP has: ugly, blocky, limited little things that can't mix with graphics.
When I think of textmode, I think of the BBC Micro's Teletext chip that was used for Ceefax and Oracle, and how horrid that was, even if it meant lots of information could be transmitted at once. |
27 February 2021, 20:28 | #75 | |
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For the Amiga it would have been perhaps possible to move lines if console roots would had been conscientiously erased, a more sharp display, a professional killer application and strong marketing. Very costly. |
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27 February 2021, 20:52 | #76 |
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However as european user that migrate to Amiga from spectrum let me tell you: moving from this
to this (found another image but was too big and this got the guy on the side, oh well) Was already good enough: did your father knew you can change colors in the workbench? That DO help a lot... Last edited by saimon69; 27 February 2021 at 21:20. |
27 February 2021, 21:14 | #77 | |
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In your above picture of Workbench, the original "serif" Topaz font is used, but then, for later Workbench revisions, the Topaz font changed to a "sans serif" font, which I think looks better. |
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27 February 2021, 21:22 | #78 |
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There were better fonts in 1985?
With my Workbench 1.2 fonts were very limited i remember |
27 February 2021, 21:23 | #79 |
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27 February 2021, 21:39 | #80 |
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However if the OP is talking about adoption of the 1000 as machine, that would not have been the case, and at the time that was what provided with: mostly Topaz serif was the only one usable as main font and the other ones were more decorative. for years me too used mostly that one.
[EDIT] if what we had in Workbench 2 and further was available at A1000 debut probably the father would be still an amigan: beside the better system font and GUI the availability of dosdrivers and Compugraphic fonts - that were more printer friendly. But was not there. Last edited by saimon69; 27 February 2021 at 21:46. |
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