Using PC as the diskdrive.

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 11:24

Guess this would be the right place to ask this theoretical question:

I am having an A500. Is it (theoretical) possible to make a program for the A500 which uses a PC as its diskdrive? I have read some of the faq's about transferring ADF's from the PC to the Amiga, but it seems that you must write them to disks before using them on the Amiga.

At first i thought it would be impossible because of the transfer-rate between Amiga/PC (serial-cable), but then i read this about amigaexplorer:

f you would like to use Amiga Explorer over a serial connection, the following articles include schematics to assemble the null-modem cable yourself, as well as part numbers and pricing information for standard cables, and for Bluetooth serial adapters:
3-105 - Null-Modem Serial Cables
3-193 - Bluetooth Serial Adapters

If you prefer to use Amiga Explorer over TCP/IP, which allows for very fast connections over Ethernet, the Amiga Explorer documentation includes a complete tutorial on the installation of Ethernet and TCP/IP in mixed Amiga/PC environments. If you already have a network you only need to enter the Amiga's host name or IP address in the Amiga Explorer settings on Windows. If there is a firewall or router anywhere between the two, make sure that port 356 is not blocked. Change the default connection password on both the Amiga and the Windows side as an additional safety precaution.

Does that mean that you can get faster transfer rates between my old A500 and my PC than a serial cable, or is it just newer Amiga's that it is possible?
And can that faster transfer rate compare to the speed the Amiga 500 uses to read it's disks? And if so, is it then (again theoretical) possible to use my PC as a storage for all my ADF's, and when using my Amiga, i could access the ADF's as i would like through the connection...?

Making any sense here? Totally unrealistic?

keropi · 11 February 2005, 11:29

serial connection on a 68000 cpu would be too slow for what you want...
you could get at BEST 4-5 kb/sec , way slower than a floppy disk...
There is no way that I know of to make your PC a virtual-floppy

TikTok · 11 February 2005, 11:36

It would be much easier to hack a spare PC drive to work on the Amiga. There are many documents detailing how to do this:

http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/aminetbin/find?pc+drive

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 12:17

And serial connection is the ONLY connectin possible between Amiga 500 and a PC ?

(thanks for fast answers by the way)

keropi · 11 February 2005, 12:27

yep....

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 12:32

...but possible with newer Amiga's?

keropi · 11 February 2005, 12:48

nope

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 13:03

That i don't understand.

You guys around here are still using Amiga's arent you? Also for browsing on the internet? The internet-connection must be more than 4-5kb?

keropi · 11 February 2005, 13:09

If you have a big-box amiga then you can have a zorro/pci network card.
If you have an expanded 1200/600 then you can have a pcmcia network card, or serial port at 115200 bps or a serial interfase providing faster speeds.
BUT there is no way to connect an amiga to a pc and make the pc act as an ADF server or a virtual floppy.
An unexpanded a500 can only achieve 4-5kb/sec with screen limitations and such...

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 13:19

Ok, so it is theoretical impossible. Just out of curiosity, how fast does the Amiga "read" the disk's (in kb/sec).

Thanks for the link TikTok, lots of new information there...

RetroMan · 11 February 2005, 13:34

I don´t really understand the postings above .... serial connection is faster than any floppy transfer rate !!!

On an unexpanded Amiga you got a maximum transfer rate of 250 kilobits per second for the floppy ...

keropi · 11 February 2005, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetroMan

I don´t really understand the postings above .... serial connection is faster than any floppy transfer rate !!!

On an unexpanded Amiga you got a maximum transfer rate of 250 kilobits per second for the floppy ...

Completely wrong.... the floppy can do ~40+ kilobytes/sec , serial ports of 460000bps only could achieve a similar rate....

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 13:46

Found this myself at Wikipeda:

"3½-inch HD floppy drives typically have a transfer rate of 500 kilobaud"

And how many baud is bytes?. Wikipeda:

"The term baud is sometimes misused to refer to "bits per second" which is the "data rate". In some systems the signaling rate and the data rate are the same since it is possible for one signalling event to carry one bit, but in general it is more common to make more efficient use of bandwidth by encoding multiple bits—as many as sixteen—in one event. Thus, a 2400-bit/s modem actually transmits at 600 baud"

And that didn't make me any smarter. But if it is only 40 Kb/s....then it should theoretically be possible at big-box amigas....?

keropi · 11 February 2005, 13:52

really people, if it was possible to make a pc act like a virtual drive we would all know by now...

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 14:07

I know...just curious of what the main problem with this is...because some of you make programs that look like they are beyond this world, and this seems for me kind of...well..possible....

11 February 2005, 18:29

Hmmm ... I'm not so sure all this is correct..........
Years ago I used a Null Modem cable to transfer files from my PC (XT) to my
Amiga 500 using terminal software on both to do the transfering.
It ran at a prety good clip, the Amiga having the slower serial port. It still ran
as fast as the Amiga port could take it. The harddrives in the two machines were
the slow points. This was back in the late 80's. I don't know for sure but I would
guess there is software (on Aminet probably) to do just what you want using a
Null Modem.

lloyd · 11 February 2005, 20:19

Have I missed something here? Who said that serial transfer was the only way? Try PARNET - it's MUCH faster! I admit I've never used it on my Amigas but I have used a similer thing on my laptop to dest top PC. Running Laplink, I used to get way in excess of 20Kb per second.

lloyd · 11 February 2005, 20:23

@ Keropi

No, serial isn't the onlt way dude

Haakon · 11 February 2005, 21:42

...but still, 20 kb/s is not enough...

Melott: ok, shall make a search...

Sune Salminen · 11 February 2005, 22:14

For disk-based games to work, you would need to plug your PC into the external floppy port or maybe the expansion port on the Amiga 500.

How else would the games know to load the data from the serial or the parallel port instead of the floppy drive, while they were running?

The PC would then have to run a disk drive emulator, maybe connected to external hardware via USB, which was then connected to the Amiga External Disk Drive port. Lots of external hardware would be needed to pull this off.

You would also have to tell the Amiga somehow that the external device was DF0:.

11 February 2005, 11:24	#1
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	Using PC as the diskdrive. Guess this would be the right place to ask this theoretical question: I am having an A500. Is it (theoretical) possible to make a program for the A500 which uses a PC as its diskdrive? I have read some of the faq's about transferring ADF's from the PC to the Amiga, but it seems that you must write them to disks before using them on the Amiga. At first i thought it would be impossible because of the transfer-rate between Amiga/PC (serial-cable), but then i read this about amigaexplorer: f you would like to use Amiga Explorer over a serial connection, the following articles include schematics to assemble the null-modem cable yourself, as well as part numbers and pricing information for standard cables, and for Bluetooth serial adapters: 3-105 - Null-Modem Serial Cables 3-193 - Bluetooth Serial Adapters If you prefer to use Amiga Explorer over TCP/IP, which allows for very fast connections over Ethernet, the Amiga Explorer documentation includes a complete tutorial on the installation of Ethernet and TCP/IP in mixed Amiga/PC environments. If you already have a network you only need to enter the Amiga's host name or IP address in the Amiga Explorer settings on Windows. If there is a firewall or router anywhere between the two, make sure that port 356 is not blocked. Change the default connection password on both the Amiga and the Windows side as an additional safety precaution. Does that mean that you can get faster transfer rates between my old A500 and my PC than a serial cable, or is it just newer Amiga's that it is possible? And can that faster transfer rate compare to the speed the Amiga 500 uses to read it's disks? And if so, is it then (again theoretical) possible to use my PC as a storage for all my ADF's, and when using my Amiga, i could access the ADF's as i would like through the connection...? Making any sense here? Totally unrealistic?

11 February 2005, 22:14	#20
Sune Salminen Dinamáquina Join Date: May 2002 Location: BH/Brasil Age: 49 Posts: 370	Multiload games. For disk-based games to work, you would need to plug your PC into the external floppy port or maybe the expansion port on the Amiga 500. How else would the games know to load the data from the serial or the parallel port instead of the floppy drive, while they were running? The PC would then have to run a disk drive emulator, maybe connected to external hardware via USB, which was then connected to the Amiga External Disk Drive port. Lots of external hardware would be needed to pull this off. You would also have to tell the Amiga somehow that the external device was DF0:.

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11 February 2005, 11:29	#2
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	serial connection on a 68000 cpu would be too slow for what you want... you could get at BEST 4-5 kb/sec , way slower than a floppy disk... There is no way that I know of to make your PC a virtual-floppy

11 February 2005, 11:36	#3
TikTok Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Malayasia Age: 43 Posts: 657	It would be much easier to hack a spare PC drive to work on the Amiga. There are many documents detailing how to do this: http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/aminetbin/find?pc+drive

11 February 2005, 12:17	#4
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	And serial connection is the ONLY connectin possible between Amiga 500 and a PC ? (thanks for fast answers by the way)

11 February 2005, 12:27	#5
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	yep....

11 February 2005, 12:32	#6
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	...but possible with newer Amiga's?

11 February 2005, 12:48	#7
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	nope

11 February 2005, 13:03	#8
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	That i don't understand. You guys around here are still using Amiga's arent you? Also for browsing on the internet? The internet-connection must be more than 4-5kb?

11 February 2005, 13:09	#9
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	If you have a big-box amiga then you can have a zorro/pci network card. If you have an expanded 1200/600 then you can have a pcmcia network card, or serial port at 115200 bps or a serial interfase providing faster speeds. BUT there is no way to connect an amiga to a pc and make the pc act as an ADF server or a virtual floppy. An unexpanded a500 can only achieve 4-5kb/sec with screen limitations and such...

11 February 2005, 13:19	#10
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	Ok, so it is theoretical impossible. Just out of curiosity, how fast does the Amiga "read" the disk's (in kb/sec). Thanks for the link TikTok, lots of new information there...

11 February 2005, 13:34	#11
RetroMan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Germany Age: 51 Posts: 3,704	I don´t really understand the postings above .... serial connection is faster than any floppy transfer rate !!! On an unexpanded Amiga you got a maximum transfer rate of 250 kilobits per second for the floppy ...

11 February 2005, 13:46	#13
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	Found this myself at Wikipeda: "3½-inch HD floppy drives typically have a transfer rate of 500 kilobaud" And how many baud is bytes?. Wikipeda: "The term baud is sometimes misused to refer to "bits per second" which is the "data rate". In some systems the signaling rate and the data rate are the same since it is possible for one signalling event to carry one bit, but in general it is more common to make more efficient use of bandwidth by encoding multiple bits—as many as sixteen—in one event. Thus, a 2400-bit/s modem actually transmits at 600 baud" And that didn't make me any smarter. But if it is only 40 Kb/s....then it should theoretically be possible at big-box amigas....?

11 February 2005, 13:52	#14
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	really people, if it was possible to make a pc act like a virtual drive we would all know by now...

11 February 2005, 14:07	#15
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	I know...just curious of what the main problem with this is...because some of you make programs that look like they are beyond this world, and this seems for me kind of...well..possible....

11 February 2005, 18:29	#16
MelOtt Posts: n/a	Hmmm ... I'm not so sure all this is correct.......... Years ago I used a Null Modem cable to transfer files from my PC (XT) to my Amiga 500 using terminal software on both to do the transfering. It ran at a prety good clip, the Amiga having the slower serial port. It still ran as fast as the Amiga port could take it. The harddrives in the two machines were the slow points. This was back in the late 80's. I don't know for sure but I would guess there is software (on Aminet probably) to do just what you want using a Null Modem.

11 February 2005, 20:19	#17
lloyd Mehh :D Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bristol, SW UK Age: 61 Posts: 242	Have I missed something here? Who said that serial transfer was the only way? Try PARNET - it's MUCH faster! I admit I've never used it on my Amigas but I have used a similer thing on my laptop to dest top PC. Running Laplink, I used to get way in excess of 20Kb per second.

11 February 2005, 20:23	#18
lloyd Mehh :D Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bristol, SW UK Age: 61 Posts: 242	@ Keropi No, serial isn't the onlt way dude

11 February 2005, 21:42	#19
Haakon Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Norway Age: 49 Posts: 180	...but still, 20 kb/s is not enough... Melott: ok, shall make a search...

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