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Old 15 July 2022, 22:04   #81
saimon69
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And i remember Black Lamp being able to switch between music and fx while in-game
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Old 15 July 2022, 22:17   #82
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And i remember Black Lamp being able to switch between music and fx while in-game
Well from the looks of it, that wasn't its only problem :-D Cheers, that's added!
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Old 16 July 2022, 21:17   #83
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add the game Dennis to the list
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Old 16 July 2022, 23:21   #84
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add the game Dennis to the list
Cheers, that's on there. Where its stops, nobody knows...
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Old 17 July 2022, 12:49   #85
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Crystal Kingdom Dizzy
just watched a tube video, on ST both music and sfx

^^EDIT not at all, prolly video edited

Last edited by kremiso; 18 July 2022 at 00:25.
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Old 17 July 2022, 14:47   #86
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just watched a tube video, on ST both music and sfx
Yeah I already noted ST against it on the list :-) It's one of just two games on the list where the ST may be the best alternative platform where you don't have to choose.
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Old 17 July 2022, 14:49   #87
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Though be careful with Youtube videos - some Youtubers record the game with sound effects only, then record the music separately and overlay it on the audio track. Makes for a much more entertaining video vs either no sound effects or vs having only sound effects, with just the silence of the void in between effects :-)
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Old 18 July 2022, 00:21   #88
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Though be careful with Youtube videos - some Youtubers record the game with sound effects only, then record the music separately and overlay it on the audio track. Makes for a much more entertaining video vs either no sound effects or vs having only sound effects, with just the silence of the void in between effects :-)
yes, not a great way to check
infact, Crystal Kingdom Dizzy on ST behaves exactly as on Amiga
had the time to test the original on Steem, music OR sfx, not both

Cybernoid ST is another fake, the music is only on main menu, and sfx ingame;
btw it would be cool to have the music also on the Amiga version

also confirmed Torvak the Warrior and Midnight Resistance having both music and sfx at the same time, on ST (the second pressing UNDO ingame, to cycle sound options)

last, (and prolly offtopic here) Astaroth seems has only music on the Amiga and both music and sfx on ST
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Old 18 July 2022, 03:33   #89
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Cheers, that's on there. Where its stops, nobody knows...
I think that there could still be a few more



btw, the game deluxe galaga can be played with musuc+sfx together

there is a option where you can assign for ex 2 audio channels for music and 2 channels for sfx or if you want ,3+1 etc
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Old 18 July 2022, 10:15   #90
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Horror Zombies from the Crypt (https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/details.php?id=2307) also allowed you to choose between music and sound effects

Also, Think! (https://hol.abime.net/4392) allowed you to do that.
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Old 18 July 2022, 10:59   #91
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yes, not a great way to check
infact, Crystal Kingdom Dizzy on ST behaves exactly as on Amiga
had the time to test the original on Steem, music OR sfx, not both

Cybernoid ST is another fake, the music is only on main menu, and sfx ingame;
btw it would be cool to have the music also on the Amiga version

also confirmed Torvak the Warrior and Midnight Resistance having both music and sfx at the same time, on ST (the second pressing UNDO ingame, to cycle sound options)

last, (and prolly offtopic here) Astaroth seems has only music on the Amiga and both music and sfx on ST
Ah that's disappointing about Dizzy. List is updated.

Do we know about the previous Dizzy games (or Fantastic)? I guess it's a safe bet they'll be joining the list if Crystal Kingdom can't do both.
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Old 18 July 2022, 11:00   #92
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I think that there could still be a few more



btw, the game deluxe galaga can be played with musuc+sfx together

there is a option where you can assign for ex 2 audio channels for music and 2 channels for sfx or if you want ,3+1 etc
That's interesting - impressively configurable! Never seen anything like that before.
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Old 18 July 2022, 11:01   #93
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Horror Zombies from the Crypt (https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/details.php?id=2307) also allowed you to choose between music and sound effects

Also, Think! (https://hol.abime.net/4392) allowed you to do that.
Thanks but just to clarify, you say they allow you choose but do they force you to choose? Or is it possible to have both enabled at the same time?
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Old 26 July 2022, 10:27   #94
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Well you can either blame the 4 channel hardware or you can blame the fascination with using trackers via 1 instrument sample == 1 channel for game engines. Demos don't need to account for random SFX interruptions in their audio aspect, games do however.

Using MOD tunes for game engines is much more wasteful of total number of DACs needed than using a few multi instrument sample loops with multiple loop points. Surprising what you can squeeze into 128-192k of sample data, a huge difference.
With complete tune sample block(s) you get 'unlimited' sound channels doing it that way as you only need 1 left and 1 right DAC channel to play it (or just 1 for A520 modulator/domestic portable TV with single speaker users), leaving 2-3 DAC hardware channels for stereo or twin mono sfx. Obviously this idea is for 1mb Amiga games not 512k 1985-87 era games.

Megadrive has some FM sounds and 1 rough PCM channel but many more channels in total. SNES has many channel but IIRC a 64kb limit for the sound chip RAM equivalent for waveforms?

What was odd is when game engine designers replaced the lead melody channel with pew-pew sfx shooty sounds and not the percussive channel in music tracks which you would notice much less.....such a n00b mistake and not a technical/hardware issue.
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Old 26 July 2022, 11:36   #95
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Can we get past the need to call it noob mistakes please? You don't achieve anything by doing so, besides hurt the actual people that hang out in this forum whom actually made games back in the day.

As has been established many times before, games are made under time and budget restraints, as well as target hardware constraints. Games were often designed to target 0.5mb models, for example. All of that leads to concessions out of the control of the programmers. It is not safe to assume that it was a lack of skill that caused a game to be the way it was when it comes to hardware limitations.

Poor gameplay though... that's another matter.
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Old 26 July 2022, 11:37   #96
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Well you can either blame the 4 channel hardware or you can blame the fascination with using trackers via 1 instrument sample == 1 channel for game engines.

Is it true at all? Usually tracker music in games consists of drums, bass and some piano/chord stabs so effectively you get like 7 voices playing on 4 Paula channels. It can be squeezed further into 3 voices with more instruments interleaving which was quite ok for a dynamic, uplitfing themes.

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Using MOD tunes for game engines is much more wasteful of total number of DACs needed than using a few multi instrument sample loops with multiple loop points. Surprising what you can squeeze into 128-192k of sample data, a huge difference.
Examples? How much can be stuffed there and at what samplerate? E.g. the Superfrog OST is 27 minutes long in less than 800 KB of total, unpacked data.

Trackers by definition don't prevent you from using sample loops in the way you describe. You can do it exactly that and much more or blend both methods (loops+tracker instruments). But 128-192 KB was a luxury in times when games was released on floppy discs, and when every disc counts. And what about loading times? Or you prefer to stream it directly from DF0?

Quote:
What was odd is when game engine designers replaced the lead melody channel with pew-pew sfx shooty sounds and not the percussive channel in music tracks which you would notice much less.....such a n00b mistake and not a technical/hardware issue.
I don't find a suggestion to break the very foundation of music's groove as valid. But again - maybe you can provide some convincing examples of game music that have it implemented correctly.
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Old 26 July 2022, 15:22   #97
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Well you can either blame the 4 channel hardware or you can blame the fascination with using trackers via 1 instrument sample == 1 channel for game engines.
Fascinating statement. Since you clearly know your stuff I'm also very interested in a couple of examples for that theory.
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Old 27 July 2022, 09:46   #98
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Thanks but just to clarify, you say they allow you choose but do they force you to choose? Or is it possible to have both enabled at the same time?
No, they won't allow you to use both. You have to choose at the start, exactly like Chuck Rock.
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Old 28 July 2022, 00:25   #99
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No, they won't allow you to use both. You have to choose at the start, exactly like Chuck Rock.
Thanks :-) Those are now on the list.
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Old 28 July 2022, 05:11   #100
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Has any clever person ever be able to force some of these games to do both? and what are the results?
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