English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 11 August 2022, 00:18   #61
ImmortalA1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: london/england
Posts: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korban View Post
Nah, not even close on an '030.
The SVP in the Megadrive version is comparable to an '060 in 3d rendering performance, so unless you want to cut to have about 1/4 of the detail and framerate (which maxes out at 15fps) of the Megadrive version; an exercise it pointlessness, any '030 version would sit somewhere completely pointless and laughable.
Well the SVP at 23mhz gives 25 MIPS, a 68040 at 25mhz gives 22 MIPS.

The Megadrive however probably has faster access to screen memory than the convoluted Amiga bitmap method as I understand it, hence F1 by Domark is about 20% faster on 7mhz Megadrive vs Amiga 500. I assume that's the issue anyway.

Certainly no need for an 060, it's fast but it isn't drawing complex polygons at all.
ImmortalA1000 is offline  
Old 11 August 2022, 00:25   #62
DanScott
Lemon. / Core Design

DanScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Tier 5
Posts: 1,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post

Would love to see this running on A500
probably 1 frame a second... the Pico is actually quite a powerful "virtual" console
DanScott is offline  
Old 11 August 2022, 00:35   #63
ImmortalA1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: london/england
Posts: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by turrican3 View Post
I think about no second prize which run on a 7mhz a500, not too bad.
not so much details but it runs on a stock a500.
Yeah I agree, No Second Prize on the ST seams to be very smooth indeed and that's just as awkward screen memory to write to and only an 8mhz 68000.

I don't expect it is possible on a 28mhz 020 like the Blizzard 1220/4 card etc but a 68040 is quite a bit better than an 020 (the 010 and 030 are not really any faster than predecessor in MIPS as usual and there was no 050).

What you do need is someone on the level of Geoff Crammond who wrote this sort of thing in ASM on bare CPU power like F1GP2 for DOS which works on a fast 486 and is light years ahead of Megadrive VR flat shaded visuals displayed.

F1GP on my 1992 25mhz 486 ran at about 20 fps (there was a key you pressed that showed FPS in game) and that IIRC clocks in about 15 MIPS, less than a 25mhz 040, and is not far off VR. Of course VGA byte per pixel is less clumsy than 5 bitplane writes on Amigas but still I am sure an 040 could do VR on Amiga...in the right hands. An 060 is probably overkill. I believe VR on Megadrive is about 15fps.
ImmortalA1000 is offline  
Old 11 August 2022, 10:14   #64
AnimaInCorpore
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Willich/Germany
Posts: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000 View Post
Well the SVP at 23mhz gives 25 MIPS, a 68040 at 25mhz gives 22 MIPS.

[…]

Certainly no need for an 060, it's fast but it isn't drawing complex polygons at all.
You have to keep in mind that the SVP runs in parallel to the main CPU. Also the DSP MIPS rating doubles when it is being used in the 3D domain due to the MAC instructions which are basically three instructions in one.

So in fact we’re getting closer to M68060 like performance.
AnimaInCorpore is offline  
Old 17 August 2022, 21:35   #65
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000 View Post
F1GP on my 1992 25mhz 486 ran at about 20 fps (there was a key you pressed that showed FPS in game) and that IIRC clocks in about 15 MIPS, less than a 25mhz 040, and is not far off VR. Of course VGA byte per pixel is less clumsy than 5 bitplane writes on Amigas but still I am sure an 040 could do VR on Amiga...in the right hands. An 060 is probably overkill. I believe VR on Megadrive is about 15fps.

Was that on ISA, high clocked ISA, or VLB? VLB was super fast compared to Amiga chip ram.
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 17 August 2022, 23:13   #66
malko
Ex nihilo nihil

malko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: CH
Posts: 4,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanScott View Post
probably 1 frame a second... the Pico is actually quite a powerful "virtual" console
You have better Amiga coding experience but given the Pico-8 screen size and colour depth I hope that better performances could be achieved on Amiga with such specifications.
Maybe I will give a try to this emulator on my weakest laptop and see how games run
malko is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 09:48   #67
Solo Kazuki
Registered User
Solo Kazuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 1,258
Since there are 3D demos for 68060, what about Quake? And many other 3D games which needs 68060, e.g. Payback. What About Alien F1 where You have reflection on front of car (is Virtua Racing have reflections)?

Virtua Racer or Virtual Fighter i doable on Amiga, but better to use 040/060 and AGA or graphic card for it. But since no-one (?) is doing this...
Solo Kazuki is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 10:19   #68
khph_re
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northampton/UK
Posts: 411
Alien F1/Virtual GP ran fine on my 030/50. Texture mapping, and lots of scaling sprites.
As much down to coding excellence as anything else.

It does make me laugh people saying 'is it possible?', when there are already more technically demanding titles already running.

I've heard it's an order of magnitude slower to implement texture mapping vs flat poly's, unless the Amiga's architecture somehow makes flat poly's a bad proposition compared to texture mapped?

Either way, it would take a very talented 3D coder, and I guess only the demo scene has that sort knowledge on the amiga these days.
khph_re is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 10:27   #69
britelite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Espoo / Finland
Posts: 793
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
You have better Amiga coding experience but given the Pico-8 screen size and colour depth I hope that better performances could be achieved on Amiga with such specifications.
The resolution and color depth are indeed artificially limited on the Pico-8, but it's still a powerful PC running that LUA-code.
britelite is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 10:32   #70
khph_re
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northampton/UK
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by britelite View Post
The resolution and color depth are indeed artificially limited on the Pico-8, but it's still a powerful PC running that LUA-code.
I can see the PICO-8 being good as a learning tool - but I really hate seeing Demo's released on what I consider a fake platform.
khph_re is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 10:37   #71
britelite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Espoo / Finland
Posts: 793
Quote:
Originally Posted by khph_re View Post
I can see the PICO-8 being good as a learning tool - but I really hate seeing Demo's released on what I consider a fake platform.
I have no problems with demos being released for it, as there's definitely some clever trickery being done in relation to the size constraints. But they should compete in either in PC compos or in a category of their own.
britelite is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 11:25   #72
khph_re
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northampton/UK
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by britelite View Post
I have no problems with demos being released for it, as there's definitely some clever trickery being done in relation to the size constraints. But they should compete in either in PC compos or in a category of their own.
pouet could do with a few more categories really.

There are so many platforms that could do with some love, other than PICO.

but that's a different thread
khph_re is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 19:07   #73
modrobert
old bearded fool

modrobert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangkok
Age: 55
Posts: 684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nishicorn View Post
Amiga used to be a computer for the CREATIVE MIND, now it's just a trashcan for failed and crappy porting ideas that shouldn't have been considered in the first place. No creativity required or even allowed.

How the mighty have fallen.. it's really SAD.
I do like the bitter grains of truth in your posts, it's refreshing, but...

...sometimes it's not the end result that matters, rather the challenge of getting there, the process of making something work. There have been lots of technically impressive ports for Amiga lately, or variants (eg. Dread), not everything has to be creative new ideas. Perhaps the nostalgia part is what makes porting old games so popular?

Last edited by modrobert; 18 August 2022 at 19:30. Reason: Added afterthought.
modrobert is offline  
Old 18 August 2022, 20:40   #74
khph_re
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northampton/UK
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by modrobert View Post
I do like the bitter grains of truth in your posts, it's refreshing, but...

...sometimes it's not the end result that matters, rather the challenge of getting there, the process of making something work. There have been lots of technically impressive ports for Amiga lately, or variants (eg. Dread), not everything has to be creative new ideas. Perhaps the nostalgia part is what makes porting old games so popular?
A lot of ports for 060/vampire owners, but also a shit ton of new games, the likes of which we haven't seen since the late 90's.

Boss Machine, creeping me out, super delivery boy, Devil's Temple, Demon Claw, Cyber Punks 2, Inviyya, Scourge of the Underkind, Worthy... and so many more, either here or on the way.

Not include software to drive development: Redpill, Scorpion engine and the Dread engine.
khph_re is offline  
Old 20 August 2022, 09:09   #75
Korban
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Australia
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000 View Post
Well the SVP at 23mhz gives 25 MIPS, a 68040 at 25mhz gives 22 MIPS.
You've overstated an '040's speed, and MIPs are nigh on irrelevant. IPC and the instructions being used are much more important and the rest of the Amiga is a bottleneck.
Completely apples to oranges comparison when just stating MIPS.
As I inferred you'd need a high end '060 to come close to achieving the results of the megadrive + svp on an Amiga.
Korban is offline  
Old 20 August 2022, 09:14   #76
Korban
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Australia
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by khph_re View Post
Alien F1/Virtual GP ran fine on my 030/50. Texture mapping, and lots of scaling sprites.
As much down to coding excellence as anything else.

It does make me laugh people saying 'is it possible?', when there are already more technically demanding titles already running.
Graphics are only a small part of the equation though. Virtual GP is a *MUCH* more simple game in terms of AI and physics. There's also a heck of a lot more geometry in Virtua Racing than the very simple and limited Virtual GP.
Virtua Racing is an order of magnitude more technically demanding than Virtual GP.
Korban is offline  
Old 20 August 2022, 10:17   #77
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korban View Post
You've overstated an '040's speed, and MIPs are nigh on irrelevant. IPC and the instructions being used are much more important and the rest of the Amiga is a bottleneck.
Completely apples to oranges comparison when just stating MIPS.
As I inferred you'd need a high end '060 to come close to achieving the results of the megadrive + svp on an Amiga.
Depends on how efficient the pipelining is on the SVP. It's just doing large amounts of 16x16 integer multiplies. The 060 is pretty fast at that, and you could even do 32x32 multiplies.

The SSP1601 (which the SVP is based on) has the advantage of having a lot of 16-bit buses to suck data in and push it out, but the Virtua Racing cartridge has only one RAM chip so it doesn't seem to use that feature. I have a hunch that the SVP is crippled by this.
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 30 August 2022, 01:07   #78
ImmortalA1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: london/england
Posts: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigaHope View Post
Was that on ISA, high clocked ISA, or VLB? VLB was super fast compared to Amiga chip ram.
My 486, which was some cobbled together small company affair I bought in Sept 1992 called 'puters, it had I believe 11mhz 16bit ISA access set in the BIOS on a very average motherboard with AMI BIOS IIRC.

It also had a really horrible SVGA chipset on the video card, the cheapest possible setup you could call an SVGA 486/25 PC but it was acceptable for regular VGA lo-res mode for stuff like Actua Soccer and F1GP.
ImmortalA1000 is offline  
Old 30 August 2022, 01:15   #79
ImmortalA1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: london/england
Posts: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korban View Post
You've overstated an '040's speed, and MIPs are nigh on irrelevant. IPC and the instructions being used are much more important and the rest of the Amiga is a bottleneck.
Completely apples to oranges comparison when just stating MIPS.
As I inferred you'd need a high end '060 to come close to achieving the results of the megadrive + svp on an Amiga.

I gave you official figures for both bits of silicon, didn't overstate anything I quoted figures given.

The AGA chipset is just as much a bottleneck anyway even if you have an 060/66 in an upgraded A4000.
ImmortalA1000 is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stunt Car Racer - still the best Amiga racing game Mr Creosote Retrogaming General Discussion 9 24 June 2022 21:41
The Best Amiga Racing Games kad3t Retrogaming General Discussion 5 26 March 2022 02:39
Could an Amiga with an 030 do Virtua Fighter? Glen M Retrogaming General Discussion 394 30 November 2021 17:50
[Found: Virtua Cop] shootie game with a gun cosmicfrog Looking for a game name ? 11 05 October 2009 22:11
3D racing game from Amiga Mania mag Twistin'Ghost Looking for a game name ? 6 17 July 2003 14:32

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.10214 seconds with 15 queries