Amiga questions you've always been too embarrassed to ask

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

It's definitely possible - the side expansion port gives you almost total access to the machine, and the Amiga's design allows self-booting expansions on the side port either as virtual drives or as memory-mapped content. However, there are a few limitations. The self-booting mechanism wasn't added until Kickstart 1.3. Assets would still have to be copies to chip RAM in order to be able to display them or play the sounds, so the chip RAM of the machine is still a limiting factor. And having to fit the extra logic needed for a self-booting device, and fitting an edge connector socket to every cartridge instead of to the machine would mean cartridges for the Amiga would be even more expensive than their console counterparts, which were typically little more than a ROM on a PCB.

Thanks for the precision. That makes me asking another embarrassant question. Why is the CD32 seems so limited VS the Mega CD (I'm thinking about Flink or Wonderdog for example of games on both machines) since the Mega CD doesn't have the data stored on PCB rom but on CD like the CD32 and must access and store the data somewhere (and had far less ram than the CD32) ?
I know that Wonderbox if because the game is a pure A500 shovelware but for Flink ? Also the MCD doesn't seems at all limited by not having instant access to datas. Game on this machine are pretty much the same as their cartridge version, except for some bad dithered FMV intro and CD soundtrack.

[paraj]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

The self-booting mechanism wasn't added until Kickstart 1.3.

Small correction: It was present (at least in 1.2) but had a fatal bug that prevented it from working. However...

Originally Posted by chb

On a side note, the A1000's cartridge port (in the front) has almost all of that: Custom chip access, self-booting (AFAIK the boot rom checks for a magic value at some address at startup)

It's also possible to self-boot under KS 1.2 using the same method. Great explanation by Toni here about how that works.
If you just wanted to make a cartridge based game I think you could skip most of the stuff and just take over the system as soon as your code runs. Be a naughty guest and just map up to 8MB of ROM assets at $200000 and off you go. Code can run at a fixed address and avoid the usual slowdown.
It would be mighty expensive though and would of course not play nice with any other expansions the user might have.


Maybe something to try for someone wanting to make an "impossible" game for A500?

[Megalomaniac]

So a parallel-port cartridge-based game would run fine on every Amiga from the A1000 up, without needing a disk to boot from? Would that have been widely-understood BITD, or might System 3 have worried about a cartridge game not working on early Amigas? If it used the edge connector that'd stop it being playable on the 600, let alone the 1200.

[paraj]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

So a parallel-port cartridge-based game would run fine on every Amiga from the A1000 up, without needing a disk to boot from? Would that have been widely-understood BITD, or might System 3 have worried about a cartridge game not working on early Amigas? If it used the edge connector that'd stop it being playable on the 600, let alone the 1200.

I don't think you could make a parallel-port cartridge work. It would have to use something that exposes most of the bus like the sidecar edge connector on the A500 (not sure how this works on the A1000). It would likely have to be an A500-only thing. One could imagine putting stuff like a Super FX chip on there if you wanted. Of course then you might as well make a general accelerator card... but in an alternate reality it was (is) possible to make "cartridge" games in this way I think.

[sokolovic]

Vivid Image (the ones behind Last Ninja and First Samurai) were in charge of developping this card for System3.
Of course Commodore wasn't involved at all.

[d4rk3lf]

Holy crap, that's awesome.
Mighty Amiga.

Originally Posted by paraj

Maybe something to try for someone wanting to make an "impossible" game for A500?

Any rough reference on the cost for prototype cartridge?
(not included cost of the game itself.. let's say... we just run Simon the Sorcerer from it)

[kremiso]

There is some problem in using a Gotek drive on AGA systems?

seems almost all the Gotek userbase here are on A500/A500+ systems;
or the only reason is that there are a lot more hard disks starting from the A1200, so just pointless?

[Weasel Fierce]

Originally Posted by kremiso

There is some problem in using a Gotek drive on AGA systems?

seems almost all the Gotek userbase here are on A500/A500+ systems;
or the only reason is that there are a lot more hard disks starting from the A1200, so just pointless?

I have a Gotek on my 1200 and wouldn't go back to a regular drive. I suspect as you say people don't use floppies much on 1200's but a lot of new releases seem to be ADF only, so its still getting a lot of use.

[nogginthenog]

I have a Gotek in my A4000. It's mainly for emergencies.

[kremiso]

thanks !

Originally Posted by Weasel Fierce

...a lot of new releases seem to be ADF only, so its still getting a lot of use.

[Daedalus]

I suspect the ease of adding a hard drive / whatever flash storage to an A1200 makes it an attractive WHDLoad machine, which means less need for faffing around with a Gotek. While they're much more convenient than floppy drives, they still can't hold a candle to WHDLoad in that regard.

But there's no compatibility issue with the A1200. The floppy drive interface is pretty much the same as on the A500, and people can and do use Goteks in their A1200s. A Re1200 I built a while ago uses a Gotek, even hooking into the A1200's video output and keyboard communications to provide an on-screen display and allow controlling the Gotek from the A1200's keyboard.

[Weasel Fierce]

Just avoid the mistake I made and make sure to get one with a case built to fit so you dont have to commit Amiga-crimes against the 1200's case.

[Weasel Fierce]

Okay, I feel stupid and I am going to ask:

The Mega I use to get WHDload installs is one that has been linked off of here, but I don't remember which user created or maintain it and I am not sure what the rules are for linking it, just in case the current rights holders of Rise of the Robots get sue-happy.

I have questions however and I hope they make sense:

A: Some of them exist in both Files and Image versions. I get the difference when I look at the contents (one has the disk images, one has all the individual files) but from my perspective picking which to download, does it make any difference?

B: A lot of WHDload packages will reference specific RAM amounts. f.x. Hired Guns has a 512kb and a 1 MB version listed in one of the file repositories I usually use. On the WHDload site, theres only one install.
Hired Guns has additional sound effects on a system with extra RAM but if I installed the 512kb version would I not receive those?

C: Ditto for packages that have a regular and a "fast" version or a regular and a "chip" version.
The readme's don't appear any different (and appear to be the same from the WHDload installer that is used with the disks if you install it yourself).

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Weasel Fierce

The Mega I use to get WHDload installs is one that has been linked off of here, but I don't remember which user created or maintain it and I am not sure what the rules are for linking it, just in case the current rights holders of Rise of the Robots get sue-happy.

The user would be Retroplay.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Weasel Fierce

A: Some of them exist in both Files and Image versions. I get the difference when I look at the contents (one has the disk images, one has all the individual files) but from my perspective picking which to download, does it make any difference?

In the grand scheme of things, probably not, but it would depend on the individual slave whether there's something specific about one of the installs that makes a difference to you. For example, the version loading the images might require more RAM to preload everything, or the files version might interrupt the game more frequently for filesystem access if it doesn't pre-load.

B: A lot of WHDload packages will reference specific RAM amounts. f.x. Hired Guns has a 512kb and a 1 MB version listed in one of the file repositories I usually use. On the WHDload site, theres only one install.
Hired Guns has additional sound effects on a system with extra RAM but if I installed the 512kb version would I not receive those?

Yeah, there are different versions basically from a completionist perspective. If the game itself will make changes based on the amount of RAM involved (e.g., extra sounds, larger levels), it's just a way of including all possible versions of the game. More than likely the highest RAM version is the one to play if you had to pick.

C: Ditto for packages that have a regular and a "fast" version or a regular and a "chip" version.
The readme's don't appear any different (and appear to be the same from the WHDload installer that is used with the disks if you install it yourself).

Probably similar, there are some games that made changes based on the presence of fast RAM. But it could also be that some games have the option of being patched to run from fast RAM instead of their default chip RAM, which will improve speed (but may cause glitching), and the different installs allow you to try a different version in case you have issues, or simply want to try the different configurations.

[Reynolds]

In AmigaOSes like 3.5 and above it is definitely mandatory to run Setpatch before anything else. But if you want to run OxyPatcher, it has to run before Setpatch. And if you want to use IDEFix, you have to run it also before that. But if you want to use Blizkick, that has to be the first, and then just can come everything else. Or if you need to run Prepareemul or RSRVCOLD/RSRVWARM, as then those has to be first in Startup... but is there any order which should be the proper method for all?

[daxb]

This is sure irritating for the most users and that is the point where do you have to understand what the stuff is doing to get the right/working order. Unfortunately there is no general method.

[Reynolds]

Originally Posted by daxb

This is sure irritating for the most users and that is the point where do you have to understand what the stuff is doing to get the right/working order. Unfortunately there is no general method.

Exactly. In my thinking if any of the possible orders are working, then it is fine. If I experience any issues, then it's not. Obviously, when blizkick become capable of loading various modules it helped to organize things better for the most efficient operation.

[rabidgerry]

I truly am glad of this thread at times!

So with a 68060 you have the regular version that has the MMU and the FPU right?

Then you have the 68LC060 right which has the MMU but no FPU right?

Can someone explain what the difference between the FPU on the processor is compared to say the FPU you get on an accelerator like on my Apollo 1260 or Amitek Hawk or like the blank space on A1200 mother board for an FPU chip.


And if you have a full 060 what does that do if the board is fitted with a separate FPU?

Pure curiosity here btw.

[Jope]

The 060 FPU is similar to an external 68881/68882 FPU, but has some of the instructions left out. These have to be emulated in software in an 060 system.

The 060 FPU is much faster than an external FPU.

You can't use an external FPU at all with the 060, so it will just stay idle if you populate one on the A1200 motherboard.