new amiga 500 doom like !

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by rothers

Do you think there is any more optimisation to be had, or is this the zenith in your opinion, the perfect Amiga raycaster? Or just the start of a new area of Amiga engines/games?

This definitely isn't a perfect Amiga raycaster, because it isn't a raycaster but a polygon renderer. But I definitely have grabbed all the low hanging fruits when it comes to optimization, as well as some higher placed ones, so while there's probably still some optimization potential, I wouldn't expect any major breakthrough. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

[d4rk3lf]

I find funny reading this thread, all over again.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=89766

The OP, even overenthusiastic, and with his poor hardware/software knowledge, was actually right!
KK proved it, and even much more beyond wolf3D engine.
(and let's not forget Britelite amazing demo of CyberWolf, that also runs very fast on A500)

I wonder what happened to Miggy4eva?
Is he aware of this project?

If someone have contact with him, let him know, and he will be overjoyed with happiness.

[ESC]

I think he knows, this demo by KK is one of the reasons he was talking about it so enthusiastically back then as well as KK's answer to his question in the comment section:
[ Show youtube player ]

[ESC]

And I wouldn't blame him if he didn't turn up here again, some of the responses to him where quite mean back then.

[rothers]

Originally Posted by ESC

And I wouldn't blame him if he didn't turn up here again, some of the responses to him where quite mean back then.

I remember someone asking about 50/60fps full screen scrolling on the ZX Spectrum and people shooting him down, telling him they knew for a fact it was impossible, he was an idiot etc. etc.

2 years later (last year) super mario bros. was released - with the 50fps scrolling.

[ Show youtube player ]

[LaBodilsen]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

I find funny reading this thread, all over again.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=89766

The OP, even overenthusiastic, and with his poor hardware/software knowledge, was actually right!
KK proved it, and even much more beyond wolf3D engine.
(and let's not forget Britelite amazing demo of CyberWolf, that also runs very fast on A500)

I would argue that Britelite and KK actually proved the opposite. That you will only get a 2x2 pixel render and 16 colors max for a playable framerate.

Miggy4eva wanted EHB 1x1 pixel rendering with "blitter and copper tricks.", and not some "lazy ST port".

I do however fully agree, that Miggy4eva did receive way to much flak for his comments, which was uncalled for.

Back OT: Just love how the dithering pixels is used for extra texture details instead, it really give the impression of a 1x2 pixels display, even though the rendering is still 2x2. Not to mention the quality of the graphics is top notch. Really great job Tsak.

[malko]

Originally Posted by LaBodilsen

[...] Not to mentions the quality of the graphics is top notch. Really great job Tsak.

+1 . He is really professional with his gfx work

(not like my 'still to improve' bedroom work )

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by rothers

I remember someone asking about 50/60fps full screen scrolling on the ZX Spectrum and people shooting him down, telling him they knew for a fact it was impossible, he was an idiot etc. etc.

2 years later (last year) super mario bros. was released - with the 50fps scrolling.

Not to mention software Multicolor! Had it in my mind since 80s and people were telling me i was crazy!
Well, Nirvana Engine and company happened...

[ Show youtube player ]

[modrobert]

Pointing out something is impossible is negative to some, inspiring to others.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Cammy

I can really relate to that feeling. The negativity here can trigger years of depression in a sensitive and enthusiastic Amigan.

I nearly quit EAB several times for this very reason. Some of the threads/posts on here are extremely negative towards the Amiga itself or members of the board. Luckily, not all of it is bad

It's difficult to navigate, though. I code on the Amiga and I know that many of the requests/ideas on the forum are going to be very difficult to achieve (perhaps even, dare I say, impossible). So on the one hand I want to be positive and want to see what great stuff people can come up with - I've been surprised many times, such as with this great Doom-style game. But on the other I'd hate for people to think everything can (easily) be done while the reality might be a bit different. On the other hand, some people think that almost nothing can be done or that everything has been done already and that's clearly false as well.

Anyway, it'd be an interesting discussion but also quite off-topic for this thread. So with that in mind, let's marvel at the near-magic of the texture results we're seeing here right now

[kriz]

Negatvity ? People are praising this development!!

[touko]

Originally Posted by roondar

It's difficult to navigate, though. I code on the Amiga and I know that many of the requests/ideas on the forum are going to be very difficult to achieve (perhaps even, dare I say, impossible). So on the one hand I want to be positive and want to see what great stuff people can come up with - I've been surprised many times, such as with this great Doom-style game. But on the other I'd hate for people to think everything can (easily) be done while the reality might be a bit different. On the other hand, some people think that almost nothing can be done or that everything has been done already and that's clearly false as well.

I agree with that, but it's difficult to be affirmative if something is feasible or not,history has shown that something supposedly impossible,can be donne by somebody, this doom like or metro siege are the good exemples , and the "overnegativity" or "overpositivity" are not related to the amiga fanbase only, all systems are concerned .

[roondar]

This'll be my last off-topic post regarding this, I really do think it's an interesting discussion - but this thread is not the place for it.

Originally Posted by touko

I agree with that, but it's difficult to be affirmative if something is feasible or not,history has shown that something supposedly impossible,can be donne by somebody, this doom like or metro siege are the good exemples , and the "overnegativity" or "overpositivity" are not related to the amiga fanbase only, all systems are concerned .

Dread was a surprise and a very nice one. But Metro Siege, not so much. The quality level, yes. It's an extremely well done effort. But at the same time, I doubt that many coders saw it and thought it was impossible. As for the overnegativity/overpositivity, I'm interested in several retro platforms and it does seem to me that the Amiga tends to get far more of these 'extreme' posts. YMMV, obviously.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

I find funny reading this thread, all over again.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=89766

The OP, even overenthusiastic, and with his poor hardware/software knowledge, was actually right!
KK proved it, and even much more beyond wolf3D engine.
(and let's not forget Britelite amazing demo of CyberWolf, that also runs very fast on A500)

I wonder what happened to Miggy4eva?
Is he aware of this project?

If someone have contact with him, let him know, and he will be overjoyed with happiness.

I agree, it is funny.
He did the mistake to post in a coders forum where he landed between some (not all) grumpy old coders who thought they've seen it all, know it all and weren't up to listening to a noob throw "crazy" ideas at them. :-)

Its very refreshing to see KK/Altairs work, going at it with a positive attitude and accepting these challenges as he goes along and also let improvements be added (graphics/sound) to make the end result even better.
Hats off to him and the other guys helping with the sugar on top.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by ESC

And I wouldn't blame him if he didn't turn up here again, some of the responses to him where quite mean back then.

Holy Fuck I just read that thread and yes I agree, there was actually no need to speak to that guy or sorry reply to that guy like that. His heart was in the right place. Just because he couldn't code didn't make him a bad guy for thinking it could be done or what ever, but boy was he punished for attempting to rally the troops and try and spur some coders on.

If it wasn't possible that is all that needed to be said.

[Tigerskunk]

I remember that poster being very loud and not very knowledgable about the Amiga's possibilities from some other threads, so I guess it's no wonder he got shot down.

We are all just social animals in the end, and what you shout into the woods might come back for you later...

Plus, most coders are wary of non coders telling them what can be technically done and what cannot. Usually triggers an automatic reflex of shooting down these ideas. I know, I am not better than that. lol. But, in defense of us coders, usually we are right with these things, but exceptions occur off course.

Also, like stated above, Dread is kind of proof that his over the top ideas were not possible. I mean, it's kind of crazy this thing exists, and in no way I would have thought this could be achieved. Yet, this is still a bit away from what Miggy4eva thought would be possible.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I remember that poster being very loud and not very knowledgable about the Amiga's possibilities from some other threads, so I guess it's no wonder he got shot down.

We are all just social animals in the end, and what you shout into the woods might come back for you later...

Plus, most coders are wary of non coders telling them what can be technically done and what cannot. Usually triggers an automatic reflex of shooting down these ideas. I know, I am not better than that. lol. But, in defense of us coders, usually we are right with these things, but exceptions occur off course.

Also, like stated above, Dread is kind of proof that his over the top ideas were not possible. I mean, it's kind of crazy this thing exists, and in no way I would have thought this could be achieved. Yet, this is still a bit away from what Miggy4eva thought would be possible.

I'm confused, surely you mean Dread IS proof what that guy was after can be done? As d4rk3lf suggests below.

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

The OP, even overenthusiastic, and with his poor hardware/software knowledge, was actually right!
KK proved it, and even much more beyond wolf3D engine.
(and let's not forget Britelite amazing demo of CyberWolf, that also runs very fast on A500)

But I get what you are saying BTW even though I think there was no harm to the guy dreaming big (and that's good people do otherwise there would be no developments) which is why personally I would just go (and I see it a lot) "hey guys why doesn't someone make this type of game with would amazing..............blah blah blah"

Anyways off topic again, but Dread is defo a boundary breaker and the work being done is fantastic. Very grateful people still bother with this platform in all the ways that they do.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Cammy

I can really relate to that feeling. The negativity here can trigger years of depression in a sensitive and enthusiastic Amigan.

Originally Posted by roondar

I nearly quit EAB several times for this very reason. Some of the threads/posts on here are extremely negative towards the Amiga itself or members of the board. Luckily, not all of it is bad

Ahh... don't be so sensitive, people...
You both Cammy, and Roondar are very helpful people, and I remember Cammy's tutorials on Backbone, and helping people run Doom on their A1200, and doing benchmarks... etc , and I see Roondar helps people, or quality participate in discussion, in just about every second thread...
You should really care less, and it would be big shame if you left, because someone said something to somebody...
Just ignore whoever is negative...
-------------

As for Miggy4eva, what I think that triggered people mostly is this sentence;

Originally Posted by Miggy4eva

I'm sorry but I'm far too old to learn a new trick like programming. Besides, I have other skillsets in my life which programmers do not have, maybe one of them is to help motivate and organise to get this project done.

I mean, I get pissed even when client, that pays me, tell me something like this. And I am ready to start arguing with him.
Organize? Motivate?
No dear client, you don't motivate me - quite opposite, if it wasn't your involvement, project would look much nicer.

But yeah, I think Miggy4eva have good heart, and I like his positive attitude towards Amiga (even he is vastly overstating abilities).
I wish he comes and participate in this thread.

Originally Posted by Steril707

Also, like stated above, Dread is kind of proof that his over the top ideas were not possible. I mean, it's kind of crazy this thing exists, and in no way I would have thought this could be achieved. Yet, this is still a bit away from what Miggy4eva thought would be possible.

Well, in his first post, bellow Citadel sample he said:
----------------
"...Citadel. The textures are far higher resolution than required, there are textures on the floor and ceiling which can be cut for Wolf. This would increase the framerate...
... but if we pixel double even this to 2x2 to fill the screen it will be fine."
----------------
So, low res textures, 2x2, no ceeling, no floors... pretty close to Dread I think.
Dread is even much more awesome then that.

[KK/Altair]

Dread is kind of proof that his over the top ideas were not possible.

Definitely there's a limit to what can be done.
Can I make Doom run on Amiga OCS - definitely not.
Can I make something that feels like Doom, is fun and it's going to be a best* FPS for Amiga OCS - oh yeah!

So instead of crying over the first option, I go for the latter.


* I'm far from gloating and I'd love to be proven wrong by someone making something even better than Dread - but considering all things so far, saying otherwise would feel like straight lying. So I better to my best for Dread to become "the best FPS on the OCS" (man, that rhymed like a poor marketing slogan).

I'm confused, surely you mean Dread IS proof what that guy was after can be done?

Things that most likely can't be done on OCS (or at least things I don't plan to try for this reason):
- running smoothly at native resolution of 320x200,
- textured floors and ceilings (while still running smoothly and at the above resolution),
- running original Doom logic without major headache (fixed 35 Hz tick and lots of kacky code),
- running original Doom maps (too much detail, visible sectors and walls)

If he referred to any of the above, then bad luck - Dread proved all of it is really hard, if not impossible.

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

So, low res textures, 2x2, no ceeling, no floors... pretty close to Dread I think.
Dread is even much more awesome then that.

The wolf3D scene in Wildcat demo already proven that.

And considering my sloppy coding (this was my first Amiga demo ever!) and room improvement, not only I realized that Wolf3D could be made this way, but I can make a fair shot at Doom without floor and ceiling textures.